Scrutable

This keeps getting thrown up. Particularly by fans of Jeremy Corbyn with regard to the Keir Starmer version of the party. What do people think?

My own view (as a swing voter with no particular ideology to which enthusiastically subscribe) is that the Blair government was a lot closer to the Tories at the time (which isn’t the same as being the same) than the Starmer version ever could be to the very very right wing Tory party we are currently saddled with. I’m open to have my mind changed though.

It's good to see the left doing what it does best and fighting the real enemy: everyone else on the left.

I basically agree, I think Starmer's Labour *might* change some things for the better but they don't have the guts to undo basically anything the Tories have done. They are nothing but a slowing down of the current trajectory, much like the Democrats are proving to be in the US. They're nothing like the Tories, the Tories are now tipping into light Fascism whereas Labour are centre-right (from my POV, YMMV etc.) Blair was centre-right also but definitely did some good things.

The problem isn't that they're not different, they are (not different enough, I'll grant you), it's that the narrative being pushed is that they're all as bad as each other when they are clearly not.

Labour have to stop being a left-wing party.

The British public want right-wing governments, which is why they keep voting for the Tories.

Labour's clever strategy is to occupy the centre-right of the political spectrum, forcing the Tories ever further towards the fringes of acceptability, and ultimately beyond.

Hopefully after the next election the British public can enjoy a small-c conservative Labour government, with lots of business-friendly, property-fetishising, police-n-prisons, geopolitical hawk type policies, only with a mildly improved social safety net as long as it doesn't remotely infringe on the wishes of the wealthy or the sensibilities of those who have never been vulnerable.

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 18, 2022 11:56 am

Labour have to stop being a left-wing party.

The British public want right-wing governments

Or at least not left wing ones that promise radical change.

As we've discussed earlier, a clear majority of British households live in owner occupied housing and include someone who owns shares (directly, or indirectly via a pension fund). Most of the electorate has a stake in the status quo.

Labour are the Tories and the Tories are the pantomime version of the Tories. My Dad is an old school One Nation Tory and he votes Labour now. He even voted for Corbyn, though that had more to do with his disgust at the state of the current Conservative party than a late-life conversion to Marxism.

Woodchopper wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 18, 2022 1:32 pm

Or at least not left wing ones that promise radical change.

As we've discussed earlier, a clear majority of British households live in owner occupied housing and include someone who owns shares (directly, or indirectly via a pension fund). Most of the electorate has a stake in the status quo.

You're probably right on the psychology of it, but owning some shares and a house is a pretty small stake in the status quo in the grand scheme of things.

You need to get Labour elected in order to shift the Overton Window back

jimbob wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 18, 2022 2:05 pm

You need to get Labour elected in order to shift the Overton Window back

Exactly this.

New Labour was the most progressive force in UK domestic politics within the lives of pretty much everyone on this forum. There were plenty of things they can be criticised for, even ignoring their foreign policy, but to say they were just the Tories rebranded is nonsense.

Sciolus wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 18, 2022 11:42 am

It's good to see the left doing what it does best and fighting the real enemy: everyone else on the left.

Sadly, this is very true.

WFJ wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 18, 2022 2:15 pm

New Labour was the most progressive force in UK domestic politics within the lives of pretty much everyone on this forum. There were plenty of things they can be criticised for, even ignoring their foreign policy, but to say they were just the Tories rebranded is nonsense.

You might think that but judging by my Facebook feed they were Nazi scum as is anyone, for instance, who ever even considered voting Lib Dem. Apparently the only ideologically sound thing to do is not vote for people like Starmer and Blair even if actual Nazis get in as a result and then you can hold your head high.

Well, the deputy leader of the Labour party has just joked about shooting people before deciding whether or not they actually deserve to be killed, making headline news with her comments, and the leader of the Labour party doesn't seem to have had very much to say about it at all.

Stranger Mouse wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 18, 2022 7:24 pm

WFJ wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 18, 2022 2:15 pm

New Labour was the most progressive force in UK domestic politics within the lives of pretty much everyone on this forum. There were plenty of things they can be criticised for, even ignoring their foreign policy, but to say they were just the Tories rebranded is nonsense.

You might think that but judging by my Facebook feed they were Nazi scum as is anyone, for instance, who ever even considered voting Lib Dem. Apparently the only ideologically sound thing to do is not vote for people like Starmer and Blair even if actual Nazis get in as a result and then you can hold your head high.

Which is exactly what a Nazi would say.

dyqik wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 18, 2022 8:17 pm

Stranger Mouse wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 18, 2022 7:24 pm

WFJ wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 18, 2022 2:15 pm

New Labour was the most progressive force in UK domestic politics within the lives of pretty much everyone on this forum. There were plenty of things they can be criticised for, even ignoring their foreign policy, but to say they were just the Tories rebranded is nonsense.

You might think that but judging by my Facebook feed they were Nazi scum as is anyone, for instance, who ever even considered voting Lib Dem. Apparently the only ideologically sound thing to do is not vote for people like Starmer and Blair even if actual Nazis get in as a result and then you can hold your head high.

Which is exactly what a Nazi would say.

Exactly.

Pretending that there's no difference between whichever party you'd vote for is something I have seen many avowed fascists push on Twitter recently. Often with the tagline "politically homeless" in their bio.

The aim is to promote apathy and uninterest in politics so people warning about extremists are boring and there's no real difference anyway.

jimbob wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 18, 2022 8:31 pm

dyqik wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 18, 2022 8:17 pm

Stranger Mouse wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 18, 2022 7:24 pm

You might think that but judging by my Facebook feed they were Nazi scum as is anyone, for instance, who ever even considered voting Lib Dem. Apparently the only ideologically sound thing to do is not vote for people like Starmer and Blair even if actual Nazis get in as a result and then you can hold your head high.

Which is exactly what a Nazi would say.

Exactly.

Pretending that there's no difference between whichever party you'd vote for is something I have seen many avowed fascists push on Twitter recently. Often with the tagline "politically homeless" in their bio.

The aim is to promote apathy and uninterest in politics so people warning about extremists are boring and there's no real difference anyway.

To be honest I felt a bit like that in the Blair days. They just seemed like competing marketing companies. I wasn’t very well informed in those days and now cringe when I look back at how I thought and felt.

discovolante wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 18, 2022 8:08 pm

Well, the deputy leader of the Labour party has just joked about shooting people before deciding whether or not they actually deserve to be killed, making headline news with her comments, and the leader of the Labour party doesn't seem to have had very much to say about it at all.

Whereas Tory MPs make similar comments so often it’s not even news.

I voted cockend. The choices were not really the ones I'd like to have seen. I would describe it as tory and tory lite. However I don't think the comparisons with Blairs Labour are founded. The difference is that Blair understood that he needed the left of the party to be on board as they provide the activists on the ground without which you stand no chance. Yes he upset some them with policy changes but he did not have a mass purge or order CLPs to NOT discuss certain topics and he didn't whip his MPs to abstain all the bl..dy time on some frankly appalling legislation that would have made Nick Griffin blush. He did not alienate the Unions either and he certainly didn't need to attempt to take on the style of the most awful side of the right wing....that is the dog whistle type comments about shooting people or ramping up the war on drugs*
Starmer lied through his teeth to win the leadership election and has reneged on, I think, every pledge he made. That makes him the same as Johnson and the British public are not so stupid they will vote for a labour liar. Stupid enough to vote for a tory liar because he's a bit funny and a cheeky chappie that's doing his best**. On top of his lies the Brexit voting public will not vote for him as they remember very well his policy in 2019 about the 2nd Ref and simply will not believe his claims that he is now fully behind it.
Bozo has charm. Blair had charm. Starmer is as charming as syphilis.
His treatment of a former leader is also appalling regardless where you sit on the political spectrum. Something that he will not be forgiven for. At least not by the people he has driven out just for being Socialists.

*Maybe not him personally but his cabinet members.
**yes I know it's bollox.

Iron Magpie wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 18, 2022 11:22 pm

I voted cockend.

Ta.
What's your favourite cheese?

How does it compare with no f.cking cheese?

Stranger Mouse wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 18, 2022 8:53 pm

discovolante wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 18, 2022 8:08 pm

Well, the deputy leader of the Labour party has just joked about shooting people before deciding whether or not they actually deserve to be killed, making headline news with her comments, and the leader of the Labour party doesn't seem to have had very much to say about it at all.

Whereas Tory MPs make similar comments so often it’s not even news.

I suppose that's one of the things that happens when you stop calling stuff like that out.

Woodchopper wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 18, 2022 1:32 pm

Most of the electorate has a stake in the status quo.

Shame that they went and voted for the radical extremism of leaving the EU and putting pressure to break up the UK.

discovolante wrote: ↑

Sat Feb 19, 2022 12:53 am

Stranger Mouse wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 18, 2022 8:53 pm

discovolante wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 18, 2022 8:08 pm

Well, the deputy leader of the Labour party has just joked about shooting people before deciding whether or not they actually deserve to be killed, making headline news with her comments, and the leader of the Labour party doesn't seem to have had very much to say about it at all.

Whereas Tory MPs make similar comments so often it’s not even news.

I suppose that's one of the things that happens when you stop calling stuff like that out.

Luckily I didn’t stop calling that type of thing out in the case of Angela Rayner and actually set up a thread in order to do so. Go me.

I'm glad you did. But the topic moved onto whether or not labour are better or as bad as the Tories, and complaints about people refusing to unify behind Keir Starmer. There are always going to be fairly extreme blinkered people in any group but I think in these discussions (generally, not specifically directed at you) there is a lack of recognition that a lot of people who supported Corbyn might feel a bit bitter that they are being told to support someone they don't like otherwise Labour will never win, by broadly the same group of people who spent over four years trying to get the former leader out. And that group might well believe that the situation was different then - justifiably in some areas - but I just don't tend to see much willingness to even try to understand that perspective. I don't think understanding it even means agreeing with it or deciding that trying to oust Corbyn was the wrong thing to do, it's more about doing what's possible to try and lessen some of the lingering bitterness.

Iron Magpie wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 18, 2022 11:22 pm

I voted cockend. The choices were not really the ones I'd like to have seen. I would describe it as tory and tory lite. However I don't think the comparisons with Blairs Labour are founded. The difference is that Blair understood that he needed the left of the party to be on board as they provide the activists on the ground without which you stand no chance. Yes he upset some them with policy changes but he did not have a mass purge or order CLPs to NOT discuss certain topics and he didn't whip his MPs to abstain all the bl..dy time on some frankly appalling legislation that would have made Nick Griffin blush. He did not alienate the Unions either and he certainly didn't need to attempt to take on the style of the most awful side of the right wing....that is the dog whistle type comments about shooting people or ramping up the war on drugs*

I think you may be viewing the past through slightly red-rose-tinted spectacles there, mate.
The demon headmaster (Jack Straw) & Charles Clarke (the safety elephant) were permanently trying to out-tory the tories when they were home secretaries. They were thoroughly illiberal & shamelessly so. Also, he whipped his MPs to support such legislation 'cos it was his legislation.
Blair didn't need a purge 'cos Kinnock had done it not long before he got in.
As for not alienating the unions, he did his damnedest to do so, but there were MPs around who kept them onside. Plus, the unions & most of the left sucked everything up 'cos we were thoroughly f.cking sickened of tory misrule & endless attacks on us. After Major won in '92 (a man whose complete lack of charisma makes Starmer look like Johnson), everyone knew we just had to win somehow, even if that meant voting for someone who nobody really liked, but everyone could tolerate and thought the electorate would tolerate too

"I think you may be viewing the past through slightly red-rose-tinted spectacles there, mate."

Very possibly. I don't claim to be immune from that kind of thing and yes I agree that Kinnock had done the purge before Blair took over. However the fact that someone else had done it and then got soundly beaten at the next election hinted to Blair that trying to do an election without the left of the party on board was a non starter. Yes by all means attempt to take the tory ground on certain areas as far as the public are concerned but there is absolutely no need to declare war on arguably the biggest side of the party in order to drag the party to the right, or centre ground as it's now called. I always maintain that this idea that the centre ground wins elections has been proven time and time again to be false. One only has to look at the steady decline of the lib dems to prove that.
The other advantage Blair had was his deputy who could appease the left. I was hoping that Angela Rayner was going to do that with Starmer but this latest garbage she has come out with has angered just about every vaguely left wing member of labour.
I hope I'm entirely wrong about Starmer and that he pulls off an amazing, never before seen recovery and gets into power and launches a full on socialist program to drag this country kicking and screaming back into the realms of sense and some kind of fairness and drops every bit of policy aimed at conning tory voters. The tories get in with promises they rarely keep so why shouldn't labour attempt to do that. I unfortunately just cannot see him doing it. He will tinker at the edges making no real change and certainly won't roll back the worst of this governments legislation and will be a placeholder for the next tory to come along and continue with selling off the very last bit of the country and dishing the profits out to their friends while the world looks on and considers us even more of a basket case country than they already do.