Labour/ Tory Party Comparison

Discussions about serious topics, for serious people

Are / Were The Labour Party The Same As The Tories?

Starmer Labour is the same as the Conservative alternative
1
1%
Starmer Labour isn’t the same as the Conservative alternative
42
45%
Blair Labour was the same as the Conservative alternative
2
2%
Blair Labour wasn’t the same as the Conservative alternative
38
40%
Cockend
11
12%
 
Total votes: 94

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Bird on a Fire
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Re: Labour/ Tory Party Comparison

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sat Apr 09, 2022 9:04 pm

discovolante wrote:
Sat Apr 09, 2022 8:10 pm
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/ar ... l-election
The Conservatives comfortably outperformed Labour across all social grades, further evidence that class is no longer a key indicator of how people vote. In fact, the Conservatives actually did better amongst C2DE voters (48%) than they did amongst ABC1 voters (43%). Labour performed the same amongst both social grade groups (33%).

This is a further realignment of voters by class that we first saw in 2017. The Conservatives performed equally well amongst ABC1 voters and C2DE voters (44%) two years ago, marginally better than Labour in both cases. Now they have improved their showing amongst C2DEs while achieving the same as 2017 amongst ABC1s.
Yes, I posted something similar identical, but those "social grades" reflect snobby old-fashioned views about people's jobs, not their material reality.

I'm assuming that people are using "working class" to mean "people who work for a living but don't earn a lot". Why should somebody doing admin for £9/hour be "middle class" while a tradesman with a second home to let is lower?

Neither party is targeting manual labourers specifically and I've yet to see a reason why they should. Improving wages and conditions is necessary even for degree-holding professionals, in a country where nurses and teachers need food banks.

So unless people actually think Labour should start targeting people based on whether the exploitation of their labour happens in an office versus a warehouse, or depending on their accent or whatever, we need an economic metric of class rather than a categorisation of job type that may not even be strongly predictive of what matters to workers, ie income relative to local housing costs.
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Re: Labour/ Tory Party Comparison

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sat Apr 09, 2022 9:09 pm

Or, alternatively, abandon the idea that Labour is a party for poorer people altogether and acknowledge changes in the political spectrum.

Labour is already the party for educated people, younger people and most ethnic minorities, was more remainy, etc. So is it now a party for modern, informed, tolerant people with an international outlook, wherever they happen to work and whatever job they do.
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Re: Labour/ Tory Party Comparison

Post by dyqik » Sat Apr 09, 2022 11:25 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat Apr 09, 2022 9:09 pm
Or, alternatively, abandon the idea that Labour is a party for poorer people altogether and acknowledge changes in the political spectrum.

Labour is already the party for educated people, younger people and most ethnic minorities, was more remainy, etc. So is it now a party for modern, informed, tolerant people with an international outlook, wherever they happen to work and whatever job they do.
That's the LibDems you're describing.

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Re: Labour/ Tory Party Comparison

Post by Lew Dolby » Sun Apr 10, 2022 9:20 am

What !! The same Lib Dems who were happy to enable David Cameron's government to inflict austerity on the nation.
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Re: Labour/ Tory Party Comparison

Post by jimbob » Sun Apr 10, 2022 9:36 am

Lew Dolby wrote:
Sun Apr 10, 2022 9:20 am
What !! The same Lib Dems who were happy to enable David Cameron's government to inflict austerity on the nation.
Indeed

Also the Lib Dems who have little chance of getting power and influence in much of the country.

I *can* imagine the Lib Dems becoming the rational party of business and replacing the Tories.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Labour/ Tory Party Comparison

Post by Iron Magpie » Sun Apr 10, 2022 10:29 pm

dyqik wrote:
Sat Apr 09, 2022 11:25 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat Apr 09, 2022 9:09 pm
Or, alternatively, abandon the idea that Labour is a party for poorer people altogether and acknowledge changes in the political spectrum.

Labour is already the party for educated people, younger people and most ethnic minorities, was more remainy, etc. So is it now a party for modern, informed, tolerant people with an international outlook, wherever they happen to work and whatever job they do.
That's the LibDems you're describing.
This is why many on the left dislike those on the right of the Labour party because they are dishonest in that they would rather hijack a Democratic Socialist party while holding the views of the Liberal Democrats rather than stand up for their true aims and beliefs. There is little difference between the liberals and the Tories in that they both believe in the current Neo-liberal politics with the slight difference that the LDs would at least feel a bit sorry for those that suffer under the current system and the Tories couldn't care less. New new Labour currently hold the same views in that they wish to just tweak at the edges of the Capitalist system rather than overhauling it completely so that the country works for the benefit of its people rather than just those at the top.

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Re: Labour/ Tory Party Comparison

Post by discovolante » Mon Apr 11, 2022 5:26 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat Apr 09, 2022 9:04 pm
discovolante wrote:
Sat Apr 09, 2022 8:10 pm
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/ar ... l-election
The Conservatives comfortably outperformed Labour across all social grades, further evidence that class is no longer a key indicator of how people vote. In fact, the Conservatives actually did better amongst C2DE voters (48%) than they did amongst ABC1 voters (43%). Labour performed the same amongst both social grade groups (33%).

This is a further realignment of voters by class that we first saw in 2017. The Conservatives performed equally well amongst ABC1 voters and C2DE voters (44%) two years ago, marginally better than Labour in both cases. Now they have improved their showing amongst C2DEs while achieving the same as 2017 amongst ABC1s.
Yes, I posted something similar identical, but those "social grades" reflect snobby old-fashioned views about people's jobs, not their material reality.

I'm assuming that people are using "working class" to mean "people who work for a living but don't earn a lot". Why should somebody doing admin for £9/hour be "middle class" while a tradesman with a second home to let is lower?

Neither party is targeting manual labourers specifically and I've yet to see a reason why they should. Improving wages and conditions is necessary even for degree-holding professionals, in a country where nurses and teachers need food banks.

So unless people actually think Labour should start targeting people based on whether the exploitation of their labour happens in an office versus a warehouse, or depending on their accent or whatever, we need an economic metric of class rather than a categorisation of job type that may not even be strongly predictive of what matters to workers, ie income relative to local housing costs.
Oh god so you did sorry. Sorry that was one of my crappy drive-by posts where I link to something without actually saying what I'm thinking. I'm just a bit squeamish about discussions about entire groups of people based on casual conversations with the odd colleague. But well I think you have a point in that Labour could work to re-define 'class'.

Ehhh I was going to say a bit more but I might not be online much for a few days to respond to/clarify anything and it's a touchy topic.
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Re: Labour/ Tory Party Comparison

Post by dyqik » Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:14 pm

Lew Dolby wrote:
Sun Apr 10, 2022 9:20 am
What !! The same Lib Dems who were happy to enable David Cameron's government to inflict austerity on the nation.
Yes, the sensible liberal party that didn't start an illegal war or encourage Brexit.

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Re: Labour/ Tory Party Comparison

Post by Lew Dolby » Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:31 pm

dyqik wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:14 pm
Lew Dolby wrote:
Sun Apr 10, 2022 9:20 am
What !! The same Lib Dems who were happy to enable David Cameron's government to inflict austerity on the nation.
Yes, the sensible liberal party that didn't start an illegal war or encourage Brexit.
But did a whole load of other nasty sh.t.
North Shropshire Tory voters, on election day - Stay Home, Protect the NHS, Save Lives

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Re: Labour/ Tory Party Comparison

Post by monkey » Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:48 pm

dyqik wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:14 pm
Lew Dolby wrote:
Sun Apr 10, 2022 9:20 am
What !! The same Lib Dems who were happy to enable David Cameron's government to inflict austerity on the nation.
Yes, the sensible liberal party that didn't start an illegal war or encourage Brexit.
While not exactly encouraging Brexit, the Lib Dems had an EU referendum in their 2010 and 2015 manifestos. Think it was caveated by "when the next big change comes" though.

Lib Dems and Labour both voted for having the referendum when it came to the vote in Parliament.

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Re: Labour/ Tory Party Comparison

Post by shpalman » Mon Apr 11, 2022 7:07 pm

Lew Dolby wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:31 pm
dyqik wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:14 pm
Lew Dolby wrote:
Sun Apr 10, 2022 9:20 am
What !! The same Lib Dems who were happy to enable David Cameron's government to inflict austerity on the nation.
Yes, the sensible liberal party that didn't start an illegal war or encourage Brexit.
But did a whole load of other nasty sh.t.
Oh well Tories it is, then.
molto tricky

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Re: Labour/ Tory Party Comparison

Post by Sciolus » Mon Apr 11, 2022 7:30 pm

Do forums with lots of right-wing members spend all their time bickering about Thatcher sinking the Belgrano and how sh.t William Hague was?

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Re: Labour/ Tory Party Comparison

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:09 pm

I don't get the impression right-wingers really think that hard about stuff. They seem to act mostly on intuition, rendering discussion largely pointless.

;)
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Re: Labour/ Tory Party Comparison

Post by discovolante » Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:39 pm

I've split some posts about blood libel denial and arguing about PMs to The Pit.
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Re: Labour/ Tory Party Comparison

Post by Trinucleus » Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:39 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:09 pm
I don't get the impression right-wingers really think that hard about stuff. They seem to act mostly on intuition, rendering discussion largely pointless.

;)
And focus on how to win elections

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Re: Labour/ Tory Party Comparison

Post by dyqik » Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:54 pm

monkey wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:48 pm
dyqik wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:14 pm
Lew Dolby wrote:
Sun Apr 10, 2022 9:20 am
What !! The same Lib Dems who were happy to enable David Cameron's government to inflict austerity on the nation.
Yes, the sensible liberal party that didn't start an illegal war or encourage Brexit.
While not exactly encouraging Brexit, the Lib Dems had an EU referendum in their 2010 and 2015 manifestos. Think it was caveated by "when the next big change comes" though.

Lib Dems and Labour both voted for having the referendum when it came to the vote in Parliament.
Shush, you'll ruin the effect of this trolling to point out how stupid the reaction of the left to the Lib Dems/New Labour is.

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Re: Labour/ Tory Party Comparison

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:03 pm

Trinucleus wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:39 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:09 pm
I don't get the impression right-wingers really think that hard about stuff. They seem to act mostly on intuition, rendering discussion largely pointless.

;)
And focus on how to win elections
Own the media and lie about everything, all the time?

Problem is that leftists can't afford the media, and most these days are too ideologically wedded to childish notions like truth and honesty.
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Re: Labour/ Tory Party Comparison

Post by Woodchopper » Tue Apr 12, 2022 4:18 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:03 pm
Trinucleus wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:39 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:09 pm
I don't get the impression right-wingers really think that hard about stuff. They seem to act mostly on intuition, rendering discussion largely pointless.

;)
And focus on how to win elections
Own the media and lie about everything, all the time?

Problem is that leftists can't afford the media, and most these days are too ideologically wedded to childish notions like truth and honesty.
One odd thing about contemporary politics is that large parts of both left and right seem to believe that the other side controls the media.

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Re: Labour/ Tory Party Comparison

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Apr 12, 2022 4:39 pm

At least in UK and USA the left are correct.
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Re: Labour/ Tory Party Comparison

Post by monkey » Tue Apr 12, 2022 4:50 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 4:18 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:03 pm
Trinucleus wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:39 pm


And focus on how to win elections
Own the media and lie about everything, all the time?

Problem is that leftists can't afford the media, and most these days are too ideologically wedded to childish notions like truth and honesty.
One odd thing about contemporary politics is that large parts of both left and right seem to believe that the other side controls the media.
I'm not sure that's exclusive to contemporary politics. The views might be more widespread, thanks to the likes of Trump, mind. Maybe "larger parts" would be more accurate.

In the UK, the traditional media is more right leaning than left, so I get BOAF's point. A friendlier media would make things easier. I assumed he was just skimming over the details and nuances.

An additional, but related problem for the left (and sometimes the centre too) is that they often have a harder story to tell than the right (even when they're not lying).

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Re: Labour/ Tory Party Comparison

Post by dyqik » Tue Apr 12, 2022 5:14 pm

Nowadays the right doesn't even really try to tell stories, just attach soundbites to outrage, and let their followers fill in the gaps with whatever their personal level of bigotry is.

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Re: Labour/ Tory Party Comparison

Post by Stranger Mouse » Tue Apr 12, 2022 5:16 pm

Enfield Conservative Chair pictured in Nazi uniform. I can’t remember this happening to a Labour politician but I could be wrong

https://twitter.com/alexjrich/status/15 ... qPHB5FR4_A
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Re: Labour/ Tory Party Comparison

Post by Stranger Mouse » Sat May 07, 2022 3:47 pm

Well I seem to have spent the day arguing with Corbyn fans who deny that this conversation happened or accuse the caller of being an actor. It’s only a short clip but I’ve listened to the call in full and it’s not out of context.

https://twitter.com/realjamiekay/status ... xM50lFK30A
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Re: Labour/ Tory Party Comparison

Post by science_fox » Sun May 08, 2022 10:52 am

Seems as appropriate thread as any - is it hypocrisy for Starmer not to immediately resign after maybe eating and drinking with colleagues during Lockdown. Or a true reflection of the difference between the parties in that he was genuinely working (maybe) and everybody needs to eat sometime during the day?

I know which way the parties argue, but it still feels very different to me. If he does get a fine I guess he'll take one for the team and hope it adds pressure to Johnson?
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Re: Labour/ Tory Party Comparison

Post by Stranger Mouse » Sun May 08, 2022 10:58 am

science_fox wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 10:52 am
Seems as appropriate thread as any - is it hypocrisy for Starmer not to immediately resign after maybe eating and drinking with colleagues during Lockdown. Or a true reflection of the difference between the parties in that he was genuinely working (maybe) and everybody needs to eat sometime during the day?

I know which way the parties argue, but it still feels very different to me. If he does get a fine I guess he'll take one for the team and hope it adds pressure to Johnson?
He should resign if he gets a fine but not for being investigated. When he said Johnson should resign it was for lying about multiple events to Parliament and then being investigated.
A caterpillar does all the work but the butterfly gets all the publicity.

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