Re: Labour/ Tory Party Comparison
Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2022 3:16 pm
Bit off topic but David Warburton taken into a psychiatric hospital
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60975624
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60975624
Below that story is a story about his 6 stone weight loss. Although the stories about his conduct are far from being proved, it is interesting that the substance in question is known to be associated with weight loss and mental health issues.Stranger Mouse wrote: ↑Sun Apr 03, 2022 3:16 pmBit off topic but David Warburton taken into a psychiatric hospital
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60975624
Absolute horseshit. Anti-Corbyn labour came out to support Corbyn in 2017, knocking on doors and doing all the usual campaigning, and it made f.ck all difference to his entryist c.nt brigade.secret squirrel wrote: ↑Sun Feb 20, 2022 1:22 pmI often see people on the Labour Right asking the Labour Left to support essentially right wing policies with the goal of 'beating the Tories', but I did not see many on the Labour Right supporting policies they thought were too left wing when that was the only game in town for the same goal. Quite the opposite in fact.
This is absolute bollocks, as expected. Corbyn's accusation that antisemitism in the party had been overstated for political reasons itself goes near some uncomfortable antisemitic tropes, and is also entirely untrue.Iron Magpie wrote: ↑Sun Feb 20, 2022 2:27 pmI would like to see some evidence that the left haven't supported the right even sometimes just by being quiet. There were no ejections of right wingers in the party under Corbyn yet the moment the right gain the upper hand they start slinging people out for having the temerity to be socialists. Corbyn has lost the whip for saying something that was expressly protected in the ECHR report and by interfering in the process Starmer has gone directly against it. Yet it's all the lefts fault according to those on the right.Gfamily wrote: ↑Sun Feb 20, 2022 2:11 pmYou seem to imply it's only the Labour Right that are the ones at fault - "they keep asking us to support their policies, but they didn't support our policies"secret squirrel wrote: ↑Sun Feb 20, 2022 1:22 pmI often see people on the Labour Right asking the Labour Left to support essentially right wing policies with the goal of 'beating the Tories', but I did not see many on the Labour Right supporting policies they thought were too left wing when that was the only game in town for the same goal. Quite the opposite in fact.
But the Labour Right would say the same thing about Labour Left, how you're not supporting certain of their policies.
The issue though is that it's not a case of which policies does Labour Left or Labour Right want, but which policies do the people of UK want?
They did, in 2017.
Stupid people you mean that would rather vote for a proven liar, adulterer and utterly unfit for office rather than for a man that has spent his entire career working for the downtrodden and underdog?
I think Grumble means people who are so caught up in life's struggles that they don't have time or inclination for a detailed interest in politics. If they think Boris is a chummy sort of person but Jeremy isn't that's what they might base a decision on. Or it could ge that they're so sick of hearing about Brexit they'll vote for the person who says they will Get Brexit Done. Irrespective of their mental capabilities.Iron Magpie wrote: ↑Wed Apr 06, 2022 6:21 pmStupid people you mean that would rather vote for a proven liar, adulterer and utterly unfit for office rather than for a man that has spent his entire career working for the downtrodden and underdog?
Yeah there's no reaching that level of stupid. Not without c.nts like Murdoch singing their praises along with the rest of the billionaire owned media.
Dismissing people as stupid is not exactly a vote winner, it’s sneering.Iron Magpie wrote: ↑Wed Apr 06, 2022 6:21 pmStupid people you mean that would rather vote for a proven liar, adulterer and utterly unfit for office rather than for a man that has spent his entire career working for the downtrodden and underdog?
Yeah there's no reaching that level of stupid. Not without c.nts like Murdoch singing their praises along with the rest of the billionaire owned media.
I hope someone in the Labour party understands that, so they can work out how to win them over to voting LabourIron Magpie wrote: ↑Wed Apr 06, 2022 10:31 pm
I'm also way beyond trying to understand the motivation behind people doing stupid things, like voting tory.
I don't have any problem with left-wing economic policies. But I had a low estimate of the capabilities of Jeremy Corbyn when he was Labour leader, based on his own words and actions. I was not sufficiently aware of the ins and outs of who he had supported in the past, nor even able to comment on whether there was an anti-semitic streak in the Labour party, because I lacked sufficient information on it. Instead, I disliked him because he seemed to me to be unreflective and unanalytic. The job of a leader, I think, is to lead a broad coalition of disparate people in pursuit of a common agenda. I wish that common agenda to be virtuous. I felt Corbyn was demonstrably and spectacularly incapable of providing that unifying leadership. People he worked with very closely, Labour MPs, passed a vote of no confidence in him by a very large majority. At that point, it seemed to me that his only viable option was to step down. His failure to do so confirmed my view of his leadership qualities. I still voted Labour, though."As per usual EALs problems with Corbyn are with the people that he sometimes engaged with. And zero evidence to back up any assertions directed at JC himself".
YupAllo V Psycho wrote: ↑Sat Apr 09, 2022 7:07 amI'm sorry this has got so heated, so, with some trepidation, I'd like to post a couple of points. I'm not a member of any political party.
Iron Magpie saidI don't have any problem with left-wing economic policies. But I had a low estimate of the capabilities of Jeremy Corbyn when he was Labour leader, based on his own words and actions. I was not sufficiently aware of the ins and outs of who he had supported in the past, nor even able to comment on whether there was an anti-semitic streak in the Labour party, because I lacked sufficient information on it. Instead, I disliked him because he seemed to me to be unreflective and unanalytic. The job of a leader, I think, is to lead a broad coalition of disparate people in pursuit of a common agenda. I wish that common agenda to be virtuous. I felt Corbyn was demonstrably and spectacularly incapable of providing that unifying leadership. People he worked with very closely, Labour MPs, passed a vote of no confidence in him by a very large majority. At that point, it seemed to me that his only viable option was to step down. His failure to do so confirmed my view of his leadership qualities. I still voted Labour, though."As per usual EALs problems with Corbyn are with the people that he sometimes engaged with. And zero evidence to back up any assertions directed at JC himself".
Starmer, by contrast, strikes me as reflective and analytic, indeed, intelligent. I don't always agree with labour policy under him, but then, the reason I have never joined any party is because I never have agreed with all the policies of a party. Given the nature of choices forced on us by the UK electoral system, any choice between a cruel, corrupt, incompetent and anti-democratic party such as the Tories, and A.N.Other, requires a wide tolerance of the A.N.Other's approaches, as long as they are not cruel, corrupt etc. in intention.
As an aside, I also think (though I do not follow the ins and outs of who said what, and who supported who) that the 'blood libel' is not a trivial matter, and certainly not comparable to unserious allegations about the marital status of parents. It has been used as an 'excuse' for pogroms in the past, and is still present as a trope in some right-wing circles.
I would agree with everything in Jim and AVP's posts and add that despite his supporters' claims that he was a champion of the working classes, the constituency he mostly appealed to was middle-class university-educated student-politics protest types. While he proved to be electoral poison in the most working-class areas.jimbob wrote: ↑Sat Apr 09, 2022 7:22 amPretty much my view, but with added frustration at Corbyn's 6th form approach to politics, throwing red meat to his small constituency but alienating most of the electorate for no reason. The clearest example being when Cameron was messing up their response to the Cumbrian floods and instead of aiming at the open goal, Corbyn chose that time to float the idea that the Falklands might have joint sovereignty. Which played into all the "loony left" stereotypes, as well as somehow missing the point that of all colonies, ones founded on uninhabited islands hundreds of miles away from land, were not taken from anyone.
Totally agree with all of this. Among Corbyn's many failings one of the biggest was that he was simply not competent.Allo V Psycho wrote: ↑Sat Apr 09, 2022 7:07 amI'm sorry this has got so heated, so, with some trepidation, I'd like to post a couple of points. I'm not a member of any political party.
Iron Magpie saidI don't have any problem with left-wing economic policies. But I had a low estimate of the capabilities of Jeremy Corbyn when he was Labour leader, based on his own words and actions. I was not sufficiently aware of the ins and outs of who he had supported in the past, nor even able to comment on whether there was an anti-semitic streak in the Labour party, because I lacked sufficient information on it. Instead, I disliked him because he seemed to me to be unreflective and unanalytic. The job of a leader, I think, is to lead a broad coalition of disparate people in pursuit of a common agenda. I wish that common agenda to be virtuous. I felt Corbyn was demonstrably and spectacularly incapable of providing that unifying leadership. People he worked with very closely, Labour MPs, passed a vote of no confidence in him by a very large majority. At that point, it seemed to me that his only viable option was to step down. His failure to do so confirmed my view of his leadership qualities. I still voted Labour, though."As per usual EALs problems with Corbyn are with the people that he sometimes engaged with. And zero evidence to back up any assertions directed at JC himself".
Starmer, by contrast, strikes me as reflective and analytic, indeed, intelligent. I don't always agree with labour policy under him, but then, the reason I have never joined any party is because I never have agreed with all the policies of a party. Given the nature of choices forced on us by the UK electoral system, any choice between a cruel, corrupt, incompetent and anti-democratic party such as the Tories, and A.N.Other, requires a wide tolerance of the A.N.Other's approaches, as long as they are not cruel, corrupt etc. in intention.
As an aside, I also think (though I do not follow the ins and outs of who said what, and who supported who) that the 'blood libel' is not a trivial matter, and certainly not comparable to unserious allegations about the marital status of parents. It has been used as an 'excuse' for pogroms in the past, and is still present as a trope in some right-wing circles.
Here's some data: https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/ar ... l-electionWFJ wrote: ↑Sat Apr 09, 2022 7:33 amI would agree with everything in Jim and AVP's posts and add that despite his supporters' claims that he was a champion of the working classes, the constituency he mostly appealed to was middle-class university-educated student-politics protest types. While he proved to be electoral poison in the most working-class areas.jimbob wrote: ↑Sat Apr 09, 2022 7:22 amPretty much my view, but with added frustration at Corbyn's 6th form approach to politics, throwing red meat to his small constituency but alienating most of the electorate for no reason. The clearest example being when Cameron was messing up their response to the Cumbrian floods and instead of aiming at the open goal, Corbyn chose that time to float the idea that the Falklands might have joint sovereignty. Which played into all the "loony left" stereotypes, as well as somehow missing the point that of all colonies, ones founded on uninhabited islands hundreds of miles away from land, were not taken from anyone.
I was using "student-politics protest types" to mean people whose main focus is on issues outside those that elections are won and lost on, rather than referring their age.Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Sat Apr 09, 2022 10:08 amHere's some data: https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/ar ... l-electionWFJ wrote: ↑Sat Apr 09, 2022 7:33 am
I would agree with everything in Jim and AVP's posts and add that despite his supporters' claims that he was a champion of the working classes, the constituency he mostly appealed to was middle-class university-educated student-politics protest types. While he proved to be electoral poison in the most working-class areas.
At least in terms of votes, at the last election Labour and Tories were both distributed pretty evenly across economic classes. Labour appealed more to the under 40s and the more educated, but I'm not sure a 36yo degree-holder is "student politics protest vote", and the tendency of Labour's centre to infantilise its left is pretty wack.
Sure, but it's still implying that it's childish.WFJ wrote: ↑Sat Apr 09, 2022 10:24 amI was using "student-politics protest types" to mean people whose main focus is on issues outside those that elections are won and lost on, rather than referring their age.Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Sat Apr 09, 2022 10:08 amHere's some data: https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/ar ... l-electionWFJ wrote: ↑Sat Apr 09, 2022 7:33 am
I would agree with everything in Jim and AVP's posts and add that despite his supporters' claims that he was a champion of the working classes, the constituency he mostly appealed to was middle-class university-educated student-politics protest types. While he proved to be electoral poison in the most working-class areas.
At least in terms of votes, at the last election Labour and Tories were both distributed pretty evenly across economic classes. Labour appealed more to the under 40s and the more educated, but I'm not sure a 36yo degree-holder is "student politics protest vote", and the tendency of Labour's centre to infantilise its left is pretty wack.
True, and I didn't think he was a good leader either. It's something I've normally seen from the right-of-corbyn part, but I guess dissing Corbyn supporters is possible from all parts of the spectrumETA: also I do not think that thinking Corbyn was a terrible leader disqualifies someone as being part of the Left.
Warburton lobbied for a Russian who loaned him £150,000 without declaring the loanOpti wrote: ↑Sun Apr 03, 2022 3:49 pmBelow that story is a story about his 6 stone weight loss. Although the stories about his conduct are far from being proved, it is interesting that the substance in question is known to be associated with weight loss and mental health issues.Stranger Mouse wrote: ↑Sun Apr 03, 2022 3:16 pmBit off topic but David Warburton taken into a psychiatric hospital
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60975624
I'll give his hospital admission the benefit of the doubt for now.
Last March, David Warburton proudly shared a copy of a letter he had sent the Treasury requesting financial help for musicians during the pandemic. The Conservative MP for Somerton and Frome signed off his Instagram post: “Don’t ask, don’t get.”
Warburton, 56, a married father of two, chairs the all-party parliamentary group on music, having played guitar in an amateur rock band and started his career as a music teacher. He volunteers as an organist at his local church.
Days later, on March 12, Warburton sent another message, again using official parliamentary notepaper, once more lobbying a public body. This time, the letter was supposed to remain secret.
It was a character reference asking the Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) to reconsider its assessment of a Russian-born businessman, Roman Joukovski.
Joukovski, 53, had made millions advising Russian oligarchs on how to secure visas to the UK and structure their wealth offshore. He had also lent Warburton £150,000 in 2017 at 8 per cent interest from an offshore trust in the Seychelles. Nowhere did the MP declare this financial relationship.
Most of the actual working class is somewhat to the right of Corbyn, as evidenced by the comments of the cleaner I referred to up-thread. I realise she was only one person, but clearly illustrative of a broad enough constituency to use her as an example.Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Sat Apr 09, 2022 10:48 amIt's something I've normally seen from the right-of-corbyn part, but I guess dissing Corbyn supporters is possible from all parts of the spectrum
I'd be interested to see actual data on this, rather than assertions and anecdotes.Grumble wrote: ↑Sat Apr 09, 2022 7:09 pmMost of the actual working class is somewhat to the right of Corbyn, as evidenced by the comments of the cleaner I referred to up-thread. I realise she was only one person, but clearly illustrative of a broad enough constituency to use her as an example.Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Sat Apr 09, 2022 10:48 amIt's something I've normally seen from the right-of-corbyn part, but I guess dissing Corbyn supporters is possible from all parts of the spectrum
The Conservatives comfortably outperformed Labour across all social grades, further evidence that class is no longer a key indicator of how people vote. In fact, the Conservatives actually did better amongst C2DE voters (48%) than they did amongst ABC1 voters (43%). Labour performed the same amongst both social grade groups (33%).
This is a further realignment of voters by class that we first saw in 2017. The Conservatives performed equally well amongst ABC1 voters and C2DE voters (44%) two years ago, marginally better than Labour in both cases. Now they have improved their showing amongst C2DEs while achieving the same as 2017 amongst ABC1s.