Etymology of Tidbit - split from Nationality and Borders Bill

[El Pollo Diablo]

Do you really mean a glottal stop? Or just erosion (if that's the right term) of the consonant?

I tried, but for the life of me I can't put a glottal stop in the middle of titbit. It just comes out like tit bit, two separate words. I got quite used to pronouncing glottal stops in Hawaiian words, so I think I'm doing it right. It doesn't feel the same if I try to do it in titbit.

Although now I think about it, I think the stop is always between vowels in Hawaiian. Maybe that makes a difference, 'cos you really are shutting off the sound with your glottis then, like you do in oh-oh.

I'm Lancastrian, so for me sticking glottals in the middle of words (or anywhere in sentences, seemingly at random) is absolutely fine, so I do hear a difference in all those words Ivan quoted.

One request I would make in response to Ivan's post (meant kindly), is a request to please stop talking about "standard" English. There isn't any standard English, even in England. Some people may speak with an RP accent but that's as much an accent as mine or a Cockney or Scottish or Welsh accent - it isn't "standard" (try living where I grew up and see how standard an RP accent sounds there). RP might be more accepted (or generally get less bias), and get more focus from linguists in many circles but it doesn't make it any more standard than other accents.

Lastly, my experience of Paris accords with tom's. Almost everyone there was lovely, sadly except the staff in my favourite patisserie, who are w.nkers. Unfortunately the entremets are so good I just have to ignore it.

[Tessa K]

I was in Kenya a long time ago; local people had stalls on the beach selling stuff to tourists. Some Frenchies were trying to buy but either spoke no English or couldn't be bothered so I interpreted.

The French were known as 'coral killers' in that area as the divers and snorkellers would stand on the coral or snap bits off.

My translating may or may not have made them pay way more than they should have.

I once had a fun experience at a bus stop in London trying to give directions to some tourists. The only language we all spoke was Spanish, none of us very well, but we just about managed.

[Sciolus]

Whene’er I travel overseas
I make my way around with ease
By virtue of that expertise
In which I am distinguished
For languages I have a flair
Which staggers people everywhere
For, yes, I am that creature rare
An English multilinguist!

Yet last time that I went to France
And tried my skills par excellence
The locals merely looked askance
At all the French I mustered
One day into a bar I went
And in my flawless French accent
I ordered ‘rouge’ and ‘creme de menthe’
And got served whelks and custard

Which really wasn’t what I meant —
I can't stand whelks or custard!

And when I travelled down to Spain
I skimmed my phrasebook on the plane
To buff my Spanish skills again
And show my hosts good manners
I went into a little store
And said ‘Dos sel-yos por favor’
The lady smiled and sold me four
Box sets of ratchet spanners

And next I travelled to Milan
To show off my Italian
In Roma Square I stopped a man
To make some conversation
I asked ‘Per andare museo?’
But this he didn't seem to know
He pointed out the way to go
Up to the Greek legation

I walked the way he said and — lo!
I found the Greek legation!

And in St Petersburgh last May
I went to see the Bolshoi play
And in the foyer on the way
A programme I requested
I thanked the lady — ‘Spah-see-bah!’
But when I added ‘zhen-schee-nah’
She screamed and called the commissar
Who then had me arrested

It's nice when trav’lling far and wide
To learn each language from a guide
But everywhere so far I've tried
This problem I’ve run into
For though my French is magnifique
As is my German, Czech and Greek
I find the locals never speak
It quite as well as I do

It's true — the locals never speak
The words so well as I do!


Acknowledgements

[Bird on a Fire]

Now this is a titbit:

[Tessa K]

Also tit bits

https://lindafinegold.com/alf-tassles-nipple-pasties

[individualmember]

Please forgive my absence for the last few days, have had a kidney stone which although not the most extreme pain I’ve experienced has nevertheless distracted me from doing pretty much anything.

So can you do a little experiment for me? When you say these words, in comparison to the invented comparator, can you tell the difference:

bedbug vs betbug NO
goodbye vs gootbye YES
handball vs hantball. NO
woodbine vs wootbine. YES
roadblock vs roatblock. NO
deadbeat vs detbeat. NO

Similarly, can you tell the difference between:
outback vs oudback. YES, but it’s because I feel compelled to pronounce the first syllable (the vowel sounds oo versus ow) differently
meatball vs meadball NO
flatbed vs fladbet YES, because I feel compelled to pronounce the final consonant in those
cutback vs cudback NO
dirtbag vs dirdbag YES
paintball vs painedball YES


BTW, I had trouble with a series of letters, I had to get my GP to repeat the sequence C-T-K-U-B three times to me before I was sure I’d got it, and I had to repeat it twice over the phone to a Radiologist for him to be sure of what I said, so maybe I’m just a terrible pronouncer anyway.

[Fishnut]

Please forgive my absence for the last few days, have had a kidney stone which although not the most extreme pain I’ve experienced has nevertheless distracted me from doing pretty much anything.

Ouch! I hope you're better now

[individualmember]

Please forgive my absence for the last few days, have had a kidney stone which although not the most extreme pain I’ve experienced has nevertheless distracted me from doing pretty much anything.

Ouch! I hope you're better now

Pretty much pain free (still taking the morphine so I’d bl..dy hope so). First time for me, I’ve heard people exclaim how awful the pain can be but never realised how right they are until now.

[IvanV]

So can you do a little experiment for me? When you say these words, in comparison to the invented comparator, can you tell the difference:

bedbug vs betbug NO
goodbye vs gootbye YES
handball vs hantball. NO
woodbine vs wootbine. YES
roadblock vs roatblock. NO
deadbeat vs detbeat. NO

Similarly, can you tell the difference between:
outback vs oudback. YES, but it’s because I feel compelled to pronounce the first syllable (the vowel sounds oo versus ow) differently
meatball vs meadball NO
flatbed vs fladbet YES, because I feel compelled to pronounce the final consonant in those
cutback vs cudback NO
dirtbag vs dirdbag YES
paintball vs painedball YES

That's interesting. I kind of imagined you'd either be "yes" with them all, or "no" with them all. But it turns out to be quite a mix, and seems to depend considerably on the context. What the vowel is, whether there is an n or a r between the vowel and t/d. I have no idea whether this a feature of your particular dialect of English, or whether it is idiolectic - ie specific to you as a speaker. For we all have our own idiolect, our own particular idiosyncrasies in the way we speak.

There are some other similar phenomena I can compare. In English we actually have 4 c/k type sounds. And I'm only talking about the coat/kate/scot/skate kind of c/k sound, not cite/church/suspicion type sounds. And the 4 different sounds are precisely as I set out in that first paradigm of 4 words. Again there is a plosive/non-plosive distrinction, exhbited by the kate/skate type of change. The other distinction is like coat/kate. The c/k sound in coat is articulated further back on your palate from the sound in kate. The distinction is whether the vowel that precedes it is a front vowel or a back vowel - the back vowel drags the c/k sound backwards on the palate.

This is quite a common feature of many languages. But it doesn't have to be like that. In Basque, these are two separate letters. You can have the front c/k after a back vowel, and the back c/k after a front vowel. They are differently indicated in spelling, as c and k. So coca and koka are two different words in Basque, and a Basque can easily distinguish which is being spoken, when a native Basque speaker is saying them. For the rest of us, it is seriously difficult either reliably to produce these words so that a Basque can tell which one we are saying, or hear which is being spoken. It is one of the more unexpected of the noted difficulties of learning to speak Basque.

[individualmember]

That's interesting. I kind of imagined you'd either be "yes" with them all, or "no" with them all. But it turns out to be quite a mix, and seems to depend considerably on the context. What the vowel is, whether there is an n or a r between the vowel and t/d. I have no idea whether this a feature of your particular dialect of English, or whether it is idiolectic - ie specific to you as a speaker. For we all have our own idiolect, our own particular idiosyncrasies in the way we speak.

There are some other similar phenomena I can compare. In English we actually have 4 c/k type sounds. And I'm only talking about the coat/kate/scot/skate kind of c/k sound, not cite/church/suspicion type sounds. And the 4 different sounds are precisely as I set out in that first paradigm of 4 words. Again there is a plosive/non-plosive distrinction, exhbited by the kate/skate type of change. The other distinction is like coat/kate. The c/k sound in coat is articulated further back on your palate from the sound in kate. The distinction is whether the vowel that precedes it is a front vowel or a back vowel - the back vowel drags the c/k sound backwards on the palate.

This is quite a common feature of many languages. But it doesn't have to be like that. In Basque, these are two separate letters. You can have the front c/k after a back vowel, and the back c/k after a front vowel. They are differently indicated in spelling, as c and k. So coca and koka are two different words in Basque, and a Basque can easily distinguish which is being spoken, when a native Basque speaker is saying them. For the rest of us, it is seriously difficult either reliably to produce these words so that a Basque can tell which one we are saying, or hear which is being spoken. It is one of the more unexpected of the noted difficulties of learning to speak Basque.

The concept of an idiolect appeals to me. Having been born in sarf London, then doing most of my growing up in east anglia, with parents from Lancashire, meant I was constantly exposed to that variety of regional accents and probably developed an amalgam of them. To any northerner I’m definitely a southerner but the way I speak is unlike any of my wife’s family, who are Londoners. On a possibly psychological note, when I hear my vowels becoming very london-esque I tend to pull myself up out of fear that someone will notice and think I’m mocking them.

[tom p]

Also tit bits

https://lindafinegold.com/alf-tassles-nipple-pasties

I thought they'd look like this .
Am sorely disappointed

[sTeamTraen]

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