I checked with the OED and both spellings are acceptable.
Etymology of Tidbit - split from Nationality and Borders Bill
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Re: Etymology of Tidbit - split from Nationality and Borders Bill
That's because it records the way people write sh.t, rather than what's right & what's acceptable to Susie Dent isn't necessarily acceptable to the rest of us.Woodchopper wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 9:30 amI checked with the OED and both spellings are acceptable.
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Re: Etymology of Tidbit - split from Nationality and Borders Bill
Actually it seems to come from tid, rather than tit:tom p wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 9:34 amThat's because it records the way people write sh.t, rather than what's right & what's acceptable to Susie Dent isn't necessarily acceptable to the rest of us.Woodchopper wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 9:30 amI checked with the OED and both spellings are acceptable.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tidbitEtymology
From tid (“fond, tender, nice”) + bit (“morsel”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tid#EnglishEtymology
Compare Old English tēdre, tȳdre (“weak; tender”). More at tidder.
Adjective
tid (comparative more tid, superlative most tid)
(obsolete) tender; soft; nice
Derived terms
tidbit
Guess that's you looking like a bit of a tid.
We have the right to a clean, healthy, sustainable environment.
Re: Etymology of Tidbit - split from Nationality and Borders Bill
well aren't i a silly sausage?
Every day's a school day, thanks for the links.
I wonder when English english switched to tit, 'cos my 11th ed Concise OED (2004) has it as titbit, with tidbit as American (not as an alternative english option) & it says that the tidbit form is from the 17thC.
Every day's a school day, thanks for the links.
I wonder when English english switched to tit, 'cos my 11th ed Concise OED (2004) has it as titbit, with tidbit as American (not as an alternative english option) & it says that the tidbit form is from the 17thC.
Re: Etymology of Tidbit - split from Nationality and Borders Bill
probably want to take my other reply over into this thread too.
and also, please could you link to this thread from my erroneous reply remaining in the nationality and borders bill so that the discussion won't return top the original thread
and also, please could you link to this thread from my erroneous reply remaining in the nationality and borders bill so that the discussion won't return top the original thread
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Re: Etymology of Tidbit - split from Nationality and Borders Bill
It is done!
We have the right to a clean, healthy, sustainable environment.
Re: Etymology of Tidbit - split from Nationality and Borders Bill
Both usages seem to have been taken up at about the same time. OED has earliest citations for both from 1641tom p wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 12:52 pmwell aren't i a silly sausage?
Every day's a school day, thanks for the links.
I wonder when English english switched to tit, 'cos my 11th ed Concise OED (2004) has it as titbit, with tidbit as American (not as an alternative english option) & it says that the tidbit form is from the 17thC.
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
Re: Etymology of Tidbit - split from Nationality and Borders Bill
why, thank you kindly, sir
Re: Etymology of Tidbit - split from Nationality and Borders Bill
You're not alone in being wrong. I thought the same, that titbit was correct and tidbit was a common mispelling/eggcorn, particularly as I see a lot of t/d errors like shudder/shutter and distain/disdain online which make me think there's some blurring of the two sounds in English.tom p wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 12:52 pmwell aren't i a silly sausage?
Every day's a school day, thanks for the links.
I wonder when English english switched to tit, 'cos my 11th ed Concise OED (2004) has it as titbit, with tidbit as American (not as an alternative english option) & it says that the tidbit form is from the 17thC.
Maybe that's different between American & UK accents. Like make do/make due. Brits tend not to muddle those up 'cos we pronounce due like dew, whereas Americans can do because they pronounce do & due the same
Eggcorns are pretty fascinating.
Re: Etymology of Tidbit - split from Nationality and Borders Bill
Not sure spelling was standardised when tid/titbit was first written down.
where once I used to scintillate
now I sin till ten past three
now I sin till ten past three
Re: Etymology of Tidbit - split from Nationality and Borders Bill
I wonder whether there's an American tendency to prudism there, similar to that which leads toraven wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 10:57 pmYou're not alone in being wrong. I thought the same, that titbit was correct and tidbit was a common mispelling/eggcorn, particularly as I see a lot of t/d errors like shudder/shutter and distain/disdain online which make me think there's some blurring of the two sounds in English.tom p wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 12:52 pmwell aren't i a silly sausage?
Every day's a school day, thanks for the links.
I wonder when English english switched to tit, 'cos my 11th ed Concise OED (2004) has it as titbit, with tidbit as American (not as an alternative english option) & it says that the tidbit form is from the 17thC.
Maybe that's different between American & UK accents. Like make do/make due. Brits tend not to muddle those up 'cos we pronounce due like dew, whereas Americans can do because they pronounce do & due the same
Eggcorns are pretty fascinating.
cock => rooster
tit (bird) => chickadee
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
Re: Etymology of Tidbit - split from Nationality and Borders Bill
I thought chickadee (which is a lovely word) came from the bird's call though. Don't think British tits make the same sound, although I could well be wrong.
Re: Etymology of Tidbit - split from Nationality and Borders Bill
It is, and it maybe that's its origin; but I still think it's a 'tit' avoidance thing
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
Re: Etymology of Tidbit - split from Nationality and Borders Bill
Both things can be true. Tit seems a fairly mild word to me though.
Re: Etymology of Tidbit - split from Nationality and Borders Bill
There are common birds in North America called titmouse(s, ...ice?), which can refer to any member of Paridae, so it's not exactly a verboten syllable. Tufted titmice are the most common ones that I see.
The name chickadee comes from the alarm calls they make.
Re: Etymology of Tidbit - split from Nationality and Borders Bill
Hmmm, yes, if I'd had less wine/beer on a Friday evening, I might have thought harder.dyqik wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 11:50 pmThere are common birds in North America called titmouse(s, ...ice?), which can refer to any member of Paridae, so it's not exactly a verboten syllable. Tufted titmice are the most common ones that I see.
The name chickadee comes from the alarm calls they make.
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
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Re: Etymology of Tidbit - split from Nationality and Borders Bill
But that would have defeated the purpose of the wine/beer!
See article at Tidbit or titbit? for the word's history.
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Re: Etymology of Tidbit - split from Nationality and Borders Bill
The t/d confusion comes from the Anglo Saxon/Germanic roots of English as in German D is pronounced T in some words. Eg Wald is pronounced Valt but became 'wood' in English. As with many foreign* imports, sometimes we ended up keeping the original sound, sometimes not, and sometimes both. Eg we have both guardian and warden from French where GU was originally pronounced GW.
Tidbit/titbit may or may not have come from Germanic roots but pronunciation gets copied across words. Old English is Germanic rooted
*foreign as in words from places that invaded and colonised us
Tidbit/titbit may or may not have come from Germanic roots but pronunciation gets copied across words. Old English is Germanic rooted
*foreign as in words from places that invaded and colonised us
Re: Etymology of Tidbit - split from Nationality and Borders Bill
That was what I had assumed ( a combination of eggcorn & prudishness)Gfamily wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 11:10 pmI wonder whether there's an American tendency to prudism there, similar to that which leads toraven wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 10:57 pmYou're not alone in being wrong. I thought the same, that titbit was correct and tidbit was a common mispelling/eggcorn, particularly as I see a lot of t/d errors like shudder/shutter and distain/disdain online which make me think there's some blurring of the two sounds in English.tom p wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 12:52 pmwell aren't i a silly sausage?
Every day's a school day, thanks for the links.
I wonder when English english switched to tit, 'cos my 11th ed Concise OED (2004) has it as titbit, with tidbit as American (not as an alternative english option) & it says that the tidbit form is from the 17thC.
Maybe that's different between American & UK accents. Like make do/make due. Brits tend not to muddle those up 'cos we pronounce due like dew, whereas Americans can do because they pronounce do & due the same
Eggcorns are pretty fascinating.
cock => rooster
tit (bird) => chickadee
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Re: Etymology of Tidbit - split from Nationality and Borders Bill
Is there a difference between an eggcorn and a malapropism?
Re: Etymology of Tidbit - split from Nationality and Borders Bill
I'd say malapropisms are obvious as soon as they are spoken, but eggcorns really need to be written down to be identified as such.
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
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Re: Etymology of Tidbit - split from Nationality and Borders Bill
Yes, an eggcorn is a homophone with a false etymology (eggcorn for acorn because it's a small round thing that grows into a tree, like an egg is a small round thing that turns into a bird), but the original malapropisms were just vaguely similar words: "pineapple" for "pinnacle" and "allegory" for "alligator". Admittedly I've never seen the play, and Mrs Malaprop might also have some less well known lines that I'd classify as eggcorns.
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Re: Etymology of Tidbit - split from Nationality and Borders Bill
I studied the play at school but that was in Jurassic times and I don't remember itbasementer wrote: ↑Sun Feb 20, 2022 3:28 pmYes, an eggcorn is a homophone with a false etymology (eggcorn for acorn because it's a small round thing that grows into a tree, like an egg is a small round thing that turns into a bird), but the original malapropisms were just vaguely similar words: "pineapple" for "pinnacle" and "allegory" for "alligator". Admittedly I've never seen the play, and Mrs Malaprop might also have some less well known lines that I'd classify as eggcorns.
Re: Etymology of Tidbit - split from Nationality and Borders Bill
Of course, we could be coming at this from completely wrong direction. If the original word was tidbit and it's become titbit over here, maybe it's not Americans being prudish, maybe it's Brits being rude... That does seem just as likely.tom p wrote: ↑Sat Feb 19, 2022 1:12 pmThat was what I had assumed ( a combination of eggcorn & prudishness)Gfamily wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 11:10 pmI wonder whether there's an American tendency to prudism there, similar to that which leads toraven wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 10:57 pm
You're not alone in being wrong. I thought the same, that titbit was correct and tidbit was a common mispelling/eggcorn, particularly as I see a lot of t/d errors like shudder/shutter and distain/disdain online which make me think there's some blurring of the two sounds in English.
Maybe that's different between American & UK accents. Like make do/make due. Brits tend not to muddle those up 'cos we pronounce due like dew, whereas Americans can do because they pronounce do & due the same
Eggcorns are pretty fascinating.
cock => rooster
tit (bird) => chickadee
@Tessa - The German d/t thing crossed my mind when I was posting, but errors like shutter/shudder or disdain/distain are just a mishearing/confusion of the two sounds though, as far as I can tell, not something etymoligical. Because d & t are - I'm guessing, not being very good at phonetics*- quite similar sound-wise. (Aspirated and non-apsirated pair? Hard & soft versions of the same sound? Something along those lines, but I don't really know the technical details of what I'm talking about....) Which I'm speculating is maybe why the Germans use letter d to represent sound t.
*Really not good at it. It's not just that I don't know stuff, it's also that I'm a bit phonetically challenged. A bit like Japanese speakers not being able to distinguish l &r, I can't work out where stress is on words because I can't seem to hear it, I can't reliably distinguish vowels, etc etc. It's a mild auditory processing issue I think.
Re: Etymology of Tidbit - split from Nationality and Borders Bill
Ooh, good link. And it led me to a site of early PG Wodehouse articles, so thanks for that.Millennie Al wrote: ↑Sat Feb 19, 2022 1:48 amBut that would have defeated the purpose of the wine/beer!
See article at Tidbit or titbit? for the word's history.