Causes of invasion of Ukraine

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Stranger Mouse
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Re: Causes of invasion of Ukraine

Post by Stranger Mouse » Sat Mar 05, 2022 5:20 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Sat Mar 05, 2022 4:52 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat Mar 05, 2022 1:18 pm
Also interesting to see him completely rule out NATO troops on the ground. Seems to be a matter of bipartisan consensus in the UK.
And in the rest of Nato. No one wants a direct war between nuclear armed states.
I dunno. I keep hearing various mouthy twunts going on about how NATO should attack Russia. I allow it from Ukrainians but Brits not so much.

In other news Reporters Without Borders have footage which appears to show Russian troops firing on a peaceful demo https://twitter.com/alexmazuka/status/1 ... 20010?s=21
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Re: Causes of invasion of Ukraine

Post by EACLucifer » Sun Mar 06, 2022 3:29 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat Mar 05, 2022 1:18 pm
Also interesting to see him completely rule out NATO troops on the ground. Seems to be a matter of bipartisan consensus in the UK.
The Ukrainian army is more than twice the size of the British army, and if we expand that to combat veterans who could be remobilised, it's about five times the size. There's also hundreds of thousands of volunteers in the country, and tens of thousands of Ukrainian and foreign volunteers heading that way. The British army is well equipped and well trained, but given the risks, it's better deployed in the Baltics to deter Russian attacks there, and to prevent Russian retaliation for all the arms that are heading to Ukraine.

The one area where Britain really could help in theory would be in air supremacy, but deploying the RAF to shoot down VVS aircraft comes with an enormous risk of escalation.

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Re: Causes of invasion of Ukraine

Post by Woodchopper » Sun Mar 06, 2022 5:31 am

plodder wrote:
Fri Mar 04, 2022 12:28 pm
Woodchopper wrote:
Fri Mar 04, 2022 10:24 am
plodder wrote:
Thu Mar 03, 2022 5:11 pm
I mean, you know, m'kay, it's actually all about NATO

https://mobile.twitter.com/hurryupharry ... 1894190081
An accidental riposte from someone from the region: https://commons.com.ua/en/us-plaining-n ... -mistakes/

To summarize, an insistence that ultimately its all the fault of the US and NATO is an example of the narcissism found in some of the US and European radical left. Russia is doing its own thing. NATO and the US are of course relevant, but they aren't as important as some seem to think.
That's worth a read, thanks
Here’s some more.

The American Pundits Who Can’t Resist “Westsplaining” Ukraine
https://newrepublic.com/article/165603/ ... alism-nato

The site has a paywall but it seems to let people read one article for free.

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Re: Causes of invasion of Ukraine

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sun Mar 06, 2022 11:54 am

EACLucifer wrote:
Sun Mar 06, 2022 3:29 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat Mar 05, 2022 1:18 pm
Also interesting to see him completely rule out NATO troops on the ground. Seems to be a matter of bipartisan consensus in the UK.
The Ukrainian army is more than twice the size of the British army, and if we expand that to combat veterans who could be remobilised, it's about five times the size. There's also hundreds of thousands of volunteers in the country, and tens of thousands of Ukrainian and foreign volunteers heading that way. The British army is well equipped and well trained, but given the risks, it's better deployed in the Baltics to deter Russian attacks there, and to prevent Russian retaliation for all the arms that are heading to Ukraine.

The one area where Britain really could help in theory would be in air supremacy, but deploying the RAF to shoot down VVS aircraft comes with an enormous risk of escalation.
He didn't say "British" though, he said "NATO". I don't have the stats to hand but I reckon their combined armies are way bigger and better than Ukraine's.
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Re: Causes of invasion of Ukraine

Post by EACLucifer » Mon Mar 07, 2022 8:15 am

I previously mentioned the idea of dividing causes into "Why Putin wants to invade" and "Why he thought he could get away with it", but I can think of another issue too, and that's "Why now?"

As for why not sooner, I think it is quite possible that Putin thought a second Trump term would cripple NATO and make it a lot easier to get away with an invasion, so instead of immediately following up his initial invasion of southern and eastern Ukraine, he waited for that to happen. We are very lucky things didn't pan out that way.

As for when in the year, there's two times of year when it's best to move troops and vehicles in that region of the world - summer, when the ground is dry, and winter, when the ground is frozen. The weather's been a bit warmer than expected, though, and the ground is softer than expected.

And perhaps most importantly, why now and why not wait? I think the answer might lie in the development of Ukraine's military. In the years since the initial Russian invasion, Ukraine has - with western help - transformed its army. Ukraine's army is better equipped and much better organised and lead than it was eight years ago, and if anything that trend's been accelerating. Military aid from the west, arms deals and domestic production have seen Ukraine gain effective drones, upgraded tanks, anti-tank weapons, precision rifles and so on, but even more importantly communications equipment, training, and a very large number of combat veterans from the war in the east.

In short, given how badly Russia has performed, it is quite possible that they wouldn't have stood a chance of invading if Ukraine's rearmament had continued for another few years. It's even possible they knew that they would struggle in a protracted war - which they are - and so chose to gamble on a quick special military operation to seize the country before it was out of reach.

I would add it is also entirely possible that I'm seeing things through July Crisis tinted glasses that make everything look like Imperial Germany, as this is very similar to the position the German and Austro-Hungarian Empires were in regarding Russian Empire modernisation prior to World War One.

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Re: Causes of invasion of Ukraine

Post by jimbob » Mon Mar 07, 2022 8:51 am

Meanwhile - for those who think that Russia seriously wanted to denazify Ukraine.

https://twitter.com/im_PULSE/status/1500215511547883530
Meet Dmitry Utkin. He is the head of the Wagner Group, the Russian mercenary organisation (or "private military contractor" according to American euphemism) which is in #Ukraine to support Putin's mission to "denazify" the country. Do you see a problem?
Check out the photos in that tweet or the rest of the thread. There is a documentation of how he killed a captured deserter, which is not gratuitous as it's necessary to show what he is, but still unpleasant
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Causes of invasion of Ukraine

Post by lpm » Mon Mar 07, 2022 8:56 am

If winter is good, why invade 24 Feb? Before you know it the snow melts and it's spring mud.

Why not invade on Christmas Eve? I remember when the USSR invaded Afghanistan and we didn't find out for a couple of weeks because John Craven's Newsround wasn't on.
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Re: Causes of invasion of Ukraine

Post by bob sterman » Mon Mar 07, 2022 8:57 am

lpm wrote:
Mon Mar 07, 2022 8:56 am
If winter is good, why invade 24 Feb? Before you know it the snow melts and it's spring mud.
https://olympics.com/en/beijing-2022/

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Re: Causes of invasion of Ukraine

Post by lpm » Mon Mar 07, 2022 9:30 am

The Olympic truce thing isn't real, though, it's just a wouldn't it be nice. All wars carry on through Olympics.
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Re: Causes of invasion of Ukraine

Post by Grumble » Mon Mar 07, 2022 9:37 am

lpm wrote:
Mon Mar 07, 2022 9:30 am
The Olympic truce thing isn't real, though, it's just a wouldn't it be nice. All wars carry on through Olympics.
Yes, but China wouldn’t have liked it.
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Re: Causes of invasion of Ukraine

Post by Stranger Mouse » Mon Mar 07, 2022 9:39 am

lpm wrote:
Mon Mar 07, 2022 8:56 am
If winter is good, why invade 24 Feb? Before you know it the snow melts and it's spring mud.

Why not invade on Christmas Eve? I remember when the USSR invaded Afghanistan and we didn't find out for a couple of weeks because John Craven's Newsround wasn't on.
Are you suggesting that John Craven didn’t do his newsround because he was occupied leading the Russian invasion force? Huge if true.
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Re: Causes of invasion of Ukraine

Post by bob sterman » Mon Mar 07, 2022 9:48 am

lpm wrote:
Mon Mar 07, 2022 9:30 am
The Olympic truce thing isn't real, though, it's just a wouldn't it be nice. All wars carry on through Olympics.
The Chinese government have said the claim is bogus. US officials have said it has credibility.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/02/us/p ... china.html

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/03/02/worl ... index.html

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Re: Causes of invasion of Ukraine

Post by Allo V Psycho » Mon Mar 07, 2022 10:54 am

lpm wrote:
Mon Mar 07, 2022 9:30 am
The Olympic truce thing isn't real, though, it's just a wouldn't it be nice. All wars carry on through Olympics.
It used to be more of a thing, if I remember my Thucydides...

Ah yes:
"The Olympic truce was faithfully observed, for the most part, although the historian Thucydides recounts that the Lacedaemonians were banned from participating in the Games, after they attacked a fortress in Lepreum, a town in Elis, during the truce. The Lacedaemonians complained that the truce had not yet been announced at the time of their attack. But the Eleans fined them two thousand minae, two for each soldier, as the law required.

A mina was equivalent to 100 drachmas, and one drachma was an average worker's daily wage, or the price of a sheep. Thus, the fine was a heavy one, equal to 200,000 drachmas"
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/Olympics/t ... e%20truce.

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Re: Causes of invasion of Ukraine

Post by tom p » Mon Mar 07, 2022 6:12 pm

Stranger Mouse wrote:
Mon Mar 07, 2022 9:39 am
lpm wrote:
Mon Mar 07, 2022 8:56 am
If winter is good, why invade 24 Feb? Before you know it the snow melts and it's spring mud.

Why not invade on Christmas Eve? I remember when the USSR invaded Afghanistan and we didn't find out for a couple of weeks because John Craven's Newsround wasn't on.
Are you suggesting that John Craven didn’t do his newsround because he was occupied leading the Russian invasion force? Huge if true.
Afghan resistance, actually. He was surprisingly high up in the mujahadin

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