Scrutable

Herainestold wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:58 pm

Yes. The story presents it as such, but they would just be common or garden variety mercenaries

Probably not, actually - see the definition of mercenary in my post above (LFM).

Bush also invented the category of Unlawful Combatant, which might apply:

The term “unlawful combatant” is used to refer to an individual who belongs to an armed group, in a context where either the individual or the group do not fulfil the conditions for combatant status. The term was employed by the administration of President George W. Bush of the United States in its ‘global war on terror’ to describe persons who are, in its view, neither combatants nor civilians but belong to a third category of persons who can be attacked at any time and can be detained indefinitely without trial. It is also sometimes used as a synonym for “unprivileged belligerent”.

https://casebook.icrc.org/glossary/unlawful-combatants
But that's not recognised under international law. As if Putin would care.

The assumption that unlawful combatant status exists as a separate category to lawful combatant and civilian is contradicted by the findings of the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia in the Celebici Judgment. The judgment quoted the 1958 International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) commentary on the Fourth Geneva Convention: "Every person in enemy hands must be either a prisoner of war and, as such, be covered by the Third Convention; or a civilian covered by the Fourth Convention. There is no intermediate status; nobody in enemy hands can be outside the law".[6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unlawful_combatant

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 02, 2022 8:30 pm

Herainestold wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:58 pm

Yes. The story presents it as such, but they would just be common or garden variety mercenaries

Probably not, actually - see the definition of mercenary in my post above (LFM).

What do you mean?

Herainestold wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:51 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 02, 2022 8:30 pm

Herainestold wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:58 pm

Yes. The story presents it as such, but they would just be common or garden variety mercenaries

Probably not, actually - see the definition of mercenary in my post above (LFM).

What do you mean?

Probably he means the words that you can see if you click on the underlined letters.

dyqik wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 03, 2022 1:23 am

Herainestold wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:51 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 02, 2022 8:30 pm

Probably not, actually - see the definition of mercenary in my post above (LFM).

What do you mean?

Probably he means the words that you can see if you click on the underlined letters.

I get that. It gives a definition of mercenary that would seem to apply to the SAS guys mentioned in the article. Bird on a Fire says it doesn't.
I don't see how it doesn't.

Herainestold wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 02, 2022 4:20 am

Under the Geneva convention do free lance mercenaries have any protection or can the Russians summarily execute them if captured?

No, and yes (though there may be protection for other reasons). From

PROTOCOL ADDITIONAL
TO THE GENEVA CONVENTIONS OF 12 AUGUST 1949,
AND RELATING TO THE PROTECTION
OF VICTIMS OF INTERNATIONAL ARMED CONFLICTS
(PROTOCOL I), OF 8 JUNE 1977

available at https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/applic/i ... P-I-EN.pdf

Article 47 — Mercenaries

1. A mercenary shall not have the right to be a combatant or a prisoner of war.

AIUI the people volunteering to fight aren't going on a payroll and therefore aren't mercenaries...

TopBadger wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 03, 2022 11:47 am

AIUI the people volunteering to fight aren't going on a payroll and therefore aren't mercenaries...

Most of them are not.
I was curious about the former SAS members recruited by a private company to go into Ukraine.
They are private contractors rather than mercenaries. What happens to them if they are captured. They would not be POWs.
I presume they would be criminals under Russian law.

It is understood the operation will be funded by an unnamed European country via a private military company.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/15 ... en-wallace

Herainestold wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 03, 2022 2:28 pm

TopBadger wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 03, 2022 11:47 am

AIUI the people volunteering to fight aren't going on a payroll and therefore aren't mercenaries...

Most of them are not.
I was curious about the former SAS members recruited by a private company to go into Ukraine.
They are private contractors rather than mercenaries. What happens to them if they are captured. They would not be POWs.
I presume they would be criminals under Russian law.

It is understood the operation will be funded by an unnamed European country via a private military company.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/15 ... en-wallace

It depends what they are doing in Ukraine, and the article isn't clear. If they aren't taking part in combat and are playing an ancillary role, for example providing training a long way from the battlefield, then legally speaking they're just civilians who are working for a private company.

Woodchopper wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 03, 2022 3:11 pm

Herainestold wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 03, 2022 2:28 pm

TopBadger wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 03, 2022 11:47 am

AIUI the people volunteering to fight aren't going on a payroll and therefore aren't mercenaries...

Most of them are not.
I was curious about the former SAS members recruited by a private company to go into Ukraine.
They are private contractors rather than mercenaries. What happens to them if they are captured. They would not be POWs.
I presume they would be criminals under Russian law.

It is understood the operation will be funded by an unnamed European country via a private military company.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/15 ... en-wallace

It depends what they are doing in Ukraine, and the article isn't clear. If they aren't taking part in combat and are playing an ancillary role, for example providing training a long way from the battlefield, then legally speaking they're just civilians who are working for a private company.

And since Ukraine is not Russia, Russian law is legally irrelevant.

Woodchopper wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 03, 2022 3:11 pm

Herainestold wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 03, 2022 2:28 pm

TopBadger wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 03, 2022 11:47 am

AIUI the people volunteering to fight aren't going on a payroll and therefore aren't mercenaries...

Most of them are not.
I was curious about the former SAS members recruited by a private company to go into Ukraine.
They are private contractors rather than mercenaries. What happens to them if they are captured. They would not be POWs.
I presume they would be criminals under Russian law.

It is understood the operation will be funded by an unnamed European country via a private military company.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/15 ... en-wallace

It depends what they are doing in Ukraine, and the article isn't clear. If they aren't taking part in combat and are playing an ancillary role, for example providing training a long way from the battlefield, then legally speaking they're just civilians who are working for a private company.

Thanks.

dyqik wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 03, 2022 3:21 pm

Woodchopper wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 03, 2022 3:11 pm

Herainestold wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 03, 2022 2:28 pm

Most of them are not.
I was curious about the former SAS members recruited by a private company to go into Ukraine.
They are private contractors rather than mercenaries. What happens to them if they are captured. They would not be POWs.
I presume they would be criminals under Russian law.



https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/15 ... en-wallace

It depends what they are doing in Ukraine, and the article isn't clear. If they aren't taking part in combat and are playing an ancillary role, for example providing training a long way from the battlefield, then legally speaking they're just civilians who are working for a private company.

And since Ukraine is not Russia, Russian law is legally irrelevant.

If the Russians catch them, I can assure you they will not be applying Ukranian law. They may not be applying any law at all.

Herainestold wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 03, 2022 3:26 pm

dyqik wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 03, 2022 3:21 pm

Woodchopper wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 03, 2022 3:11 pm

It depends what they are doing in Ukraine, and the article isn't clear. If they aren't taking part in combat and are playing an ancillary role, for example providing training a long way from the battlefield, then legally speaking they're just civilians who are working for a private company.

And since Ukraine is not Russia, Russian law is legally irrelevant.

If the Russians catch them, I can assure you they will not be applying Ukranian law. They may not be applying any law at all.

If you believe the Russians won’t be applying any law at all I am confused as to why you think Unkraine would be safe in surrendering their people to Russian forces.

Stranger Mouse wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 03, 2022 3:37 pm

Herainestold wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 03, 2022 3:26 pm

dyqik wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 03, 2022 3:21 pm

And since Ukraine is not Russia, Russian law is legally irrelevant.

If the Russians catch them, I can assure you they will not be applying Ukranian law. They may not be applying any law at all.

If you believe the Russians won’t be applying any law at all I am confused as to why you think Unkraine would be safe in surrendering their people to Russian forces.

Better red than dead, as my pa used to say.

I'm just trying to figure out the nuances of mercenaries/contracters with respect to law in a conflict zone, Ukraine.

Herainestold wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 03, 2022 3:40 pm

Stranger Mouse wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 03, 2022 3:37 pm

Herainestold wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 03, 2022 3:26 pm

If the Russians catch them, I can assure you they will not be applying Ukranian law. They may not be applying any law at all.

If you believe the Russians won’t be applying any law at all I am confused as to why you think Unkraine would be safe in surrendering their people to Russian forces.

Better red than dead, as my pa used to say.

I don’t understand. You have made very clear at every point that you believe that Ukraine should surrender for safety reasons but you have also just stated that you believe Russia may choose not to follow any law at all in how they treat people. How are these views consistent? And what has “better red than dead” got to do with anything when we are discussing whether Russia will decide to ignore any law whatsoever in their treatment of prisoners.

Herainestold wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 03, 2022 3:42 pm

I'm just trying to figure out the nuances of mercenaries/contracters with respect to law in a conflict zone, Ukraine.

Well why don't you f.ck off for a bit and do some reading, rather than making stupid statements and asking stupid questions?
seriously, links have already been provided. read them and understand them. Read them. And understand them.

I disagree with the people who have ordered you to stop trolling, but if you really mean what you say, then actually bother to read up on it.

tom p wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 03, 2022 4:11 pm

Herainestold wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 03, 2022 3:42 pm

I'm just trying to figure out the nuances of mercenaries/contracters with respect to law in a conflict zone, Ukraine.

Well why don't you f.ck off for a bit and do some reading, rather than making stupid statements and asking stupid questions?
seriously, links have already been provided. read them and understand them. Read them. And understand them.

I disagree with the people who have ordered you to stop trolling, but if you really mean what you say, then actually bother to read up on it.

I have read it and there are lots of gray areas and contradictions. By asking questions and getting replies from people you can start to get an idea
of the complexities of this.

If we are encouraging people to go and fight in Ukraine, as volunteers or as contractors or as mercenaries, maybe we should think through the consequences, what happens when they are captured by the Russians, what laws apply, and are the Russians likely to apply them or apply their own or act arbitrarily?

This could be a discussion, not just reading regulations. I guess people don't want to discuss it. So be it.

Stranger Mouse wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 03, 2022 3:47 pm

Herainestold wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 03, 2022 3:40 pm

Stranger Mouse wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 03, 2022 3:37 pm

If you believe the Russians won’t be applying any law at all I am confused as to why you think Unkraine would be safe in surrendering their people to Russian forces.

Better red than dead, as my pa used to say.

I don’t understand. You have made very clear at every point that you believe that Ukraine should surrender for safety reasons but you have also just stated that you believe Russia may choose not to follow any law at all in how they treat people. How are these views consistent? And what has “better red than dead” got to do with anything when we are discussing whether Russia will decide to ignore any law whatsoever in their treatment of prisoners.

I don't know what I think. People's views can change. One of the ways they change is by discussing things and reading other people's thoughts.
We are in a horrible place right now with no easy options. I am not sure that encouraging Ukranians to die and destroy their country really helps anybody. I don't know what Russia is going to do. What do think they will do? How do you see this playing out?

Herainestold wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 03, 2022 5:07 pm

Stranger Mouse wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 03, 2022 3:47 pm

Herainestold wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 03, 2022 3:40 pm

Better red than dead, as my pa used to say.

I don’t understand. You have made very clear at every point that you believe that Ukraine should surrender for safety reasons but you have also just stated that you believe Russia may choose not to follow any law at all in how they treat people. How are these views consistent? And what has “better red than dead” got to do with anything when we are discussing whether Russia will decide to ignore any law whatsoever in their treatment of prisoners.

I don't know what I think. People's views can change. One of the ways they change is by discussing things and reading other people's thoughts.
We are in a horrible place right now with no easy options. I am not sure that encouraging Ukranians to die and destroy their country really helps anybody. I don't know what Russia is going to do. What do think they will do? How do you see this playing out?

I don’t know. But what I do know is that absolutely nobody on any of the Ukraine threads is encouraging Ukrainian people to do anything. Any suggestion they are is a lie. I did searches on all the threads and then checked manually for any post that could be interpreted as doing this. There are none. Absolutely none.

Stop lying.

Herainestold wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 03, 2022 5:07 pm

[snip]
I don't know what I think. People's views can change. One of the ways they change is by discussing things and reading other people's thoughts.

Still not changed your mind about China, eh? Sometimes you do know what you think.

Herainestold wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 03, 2022 4:59 pm

If we are encouraging people to go and fight in Ukraine, as volunteers or as contractors or as mercenaries, maybe we should think through the consequences, what happens when they are captured by the Russians, what laws apply, and are the Russians likely to apply them or apply their own or act arbitrarily?

It is irrelevant.

International law does not apply to Russia, US and China, nor, if they so choose, to those they are directly working with or otherwise protecting (UK, Israel, Belarus maybe). All that matters in these cases are the political repercussions of their actions. Externally, Putin has shown he does not care about western political views, China won't care, and unless things are very bad India probably won't take a strong view, and has much less power anyway. Internally, at least the US/UK face some political pressures to act responsibly, but in Russia there is much less.

Herainestold wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 03, 2022 3:40 pm

Better red than dead, as my pa used to say.

Makes me wonder if cowardice is learned or inherited...

I'm pleased there are Ukrainians willing to fight to defend their country. Afghanistan would be a better place if its Army stood and fought the Taliban.

Herainestold wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 03, 2022 5:07 pm

I don't know what I think.

You think that NATO are to blame for the conflict, that the West should have no involvement in Ukraine, that there should be a Slavic sphere of influence, and that it's reasonable for Putin to decide Ukraine should be within that sphere. You hope that Ukraine will surrender, and give Putin an easy victory.

hth

Ukrainian officials reporting sixteen thousand joining up this way.

Any chance something similar can be set up for former military pilots, along with all the combat planes they can carry?