Blyatskrieg

Discussions about serious topics, for serious people
Post Reply
User avatar
lpm
Junior Mod
Posts: 5944
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:05 pm

Re: Blyatskrieg

Post by lpm » Tue May 03, 2022 1:16 pm

I've no knowledge of artillery and keep reading things like "25 miles" without really thinking about it. I don't know what a howitzer is. And it's hard to grasp the huge size of Ukraine as a country.

For context, the howitzers we're supplying could be placed on the M25 and hit Nelson's Column to within 4 metres. That's around 15 miles. Some of the extended ranges are 25 miles, which enables the Queen sitting in Windsor Castle to hit Canary Wharf. One of these at Anfield could almost hit Old Trafford.

Plus Ukraine has perfect maps, pre-plotted ranges, complete visual sighting and easier logistics to get volume of shells up to the guns. They seem to be getting intelligence on exact locations of Russian command posts.

This video claims to be a hit on a command post (the first explosion) by some unknown weapon, followed up by regular rocket artillery hitting other stuff (trigger warning: Russians getting blown up):

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1520330616243376128

Somewhere on twitter was a suggestion that Ukraine has changed tactics, reducing attacks on tanks etc and increasing attacks on Russian artillery.
⭐ Awarded gold star 4 November 2021

User avatar
Woodchopper
Princess POW
Posts: 7057
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:05 am

Re: Blyatskrieg

Post by Woodchopper » Tue May 03, 2022 1:30 pm

lpm wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 1:16 pm
Plus Ukraine has perfect maps, pre-plotted ranges, complete visual sighting and easier logistics to get volume of shells up to the guns. They seem to be getting intelligence on exact locations of Russian command posts.
The US is helping, as are Ukrainian civilians (and likely troops operating behind Russian lines).

User avatar
Woodchopper
Princess POW
Posts: 7057
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:05 am

Re: Blyatskrieg

Post by Woodchopper » Tue May 03, 2022 1:37 pm

lpm wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 1:16 pm
For context, the howitzers we're supplying could be placed on the M25 and hit Nelson's Column to within 4 metres.
There's some recently supplied GPS guided ammunition that can do that (Excalibur). It may not be being used yet.

In practice what the Ukrainians (and Russians) have been doing is using drones to spot targets and send back real time video allowing the gunners to adjust their shots.
lpm wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 1:16 pm

Somewhere on twitter was a suggestion that Ukraine has changed tactics, reducing attacks on tanks etc and increasing attacks on Russian artillery.
If that is correct it may be due to a change in Russian tactics - eg keeping the tanks concealed somewhere safe rather than use them to attack Ukrainian positions.

User avatar
EACLucifer
Stummy Beige
Posts: 4177
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:49 am
Location: In Sumerian Haze

Re: Blyatskrieg

Post by EACLucifer » Tue May 03, 2022 2:19 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 1:37 pm
lpm wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 1:16 pm
For context, the howitzers we're supplying could be placed on the M25 and hit Nelson's Column to within 4 metres.
Ukraine already has the Soviet made 2S7 'Pion' in service, which is larger in calibre than anything in use in the west (203mm vs 155mm), and with the right ammunition could be deployed within the Leeds ring road and hit the centre of Manchester.
There's some recently supplied GPS guided ammunition that can do that (Excalibur). It may not be being used yet.
Ukraine already has the similar Kvitnik for their 152mm guns, though producing it after Russian attacks on the Ukrainian arms industry could be challenging.
In practice what the Ukrainians (and Russians) have been doing is using drones to spot targets and send back real time video allowing the gunners to adjust their shots.
I thing people often miss is that artillery guns are extremely accurate. Tank and artillery guns have comparable or better mechanical accuracy than sniper rifles, in terms of angular error - that's not hyperbole; the British WWII 17pdr had an accuracy, at about a kilometre and a half, of a bout .75MOA, which is about what can be achieved with PGM Precision's Hecate II at the same range.

The issues with accurate artillery fire relate to the ranges involved, and targetting. As artillery is seldom used for direct fire, artillery units have to hit targets they cannot see. To do this, they need to know where their target is, but they also need to know exactly where they are. Modern equipment - GPS and observation drones to locate the battery and target and modern computers to calculate the firing solutions - allow gun artillery to be extremely accurate even without guided rounds. Guided rounds certainly have their uses - attacking targets close to friendly troops or civilians, or depending on the system used attacking moving targets, and they can extend the range of the artillery by allowing the shell to glide towards the target rather than following a ballistic trajectory, but in many situations, old fashioned unguided shells are perfectly adequate.

The west has become so accustomed to air support that artillery has been neglected in the west. This isn't to say that western artillery isn't often very good - but on the whole it has been neglected, including the rather odd priorities behind the use of the (towed) M777 now being sent to Ukraine - it is extremely expensive due to the use of titanium to keep the weight down and allow it to be carried under a helicopter, yet in most situations it will be more vulnerable and less useful than a mobile artillery piece, whether that's a conventional SPG, or something like the French CAESAR system - effectively a towed artillery gun mounted directly onto the bed of an all terrain truck so as to radically reduce the time it takes to emplace, and even more importantly, to de-emplace and move, allowing it to fire, then move before any return fire can arrive.

User avatar
Little waster
After Pie
Posts: 2385
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:35 am
Location: About 1 inch behind my eyes

Re: Blyatskrieg

Post by Little waster » Tue May 03, 2022 6:07 pm

lpm wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 1:16 pm
One of these at Anfield could almost hit Old Trafford.
TBF so could Emile Heskey.
This place is not a place of honor, no highly esteemed deed is commemorated here, nothing valued is here.
What is here was dangerous and repulsive to us.
This place is best shunned and left uninhabited.

User avatar
EACLucifer
Stummy Beige
Posts: 4177
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:49 am
Location: In Sumerian Haze

Re: Blyatskrieg

Post by EACLucifer » Tue May 03, 2022 7:32 pm

Looks like Staryi Saltiv has been liberated. This makes the west bank of the Seversky Donets untenable for the Russians in the north, and puts pressure on the Russian supply lines to Izium, the main focus of their attacks at the moment.

It wouldn't be too surprising if things settle down at this point - the Seversky Donets is a large river, and a significant natural barrier as a consequence, and pushing the Russians back over the Seversky Donets in the north protects Kharkiv from shelling and enables artillery on the western side of the Seversky Donets to target the main road from Belgorod to Izium. If, however, Ukrainian troops were able to advance beyond it, they could think about pushing east to the Oskil and really buggering up Russian supply lines.

User avatar
sTeamTraen
After Pie
Posts: 2551
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:24 pm
Location: Palma de Mallorca, Spain

Re: Blyatskrieg

Post by sTeamTraen » Tue May 03, 2022 10:53 pm

lpm wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 1:16 pm
For context, the howitzers we're supplying could be placed on the M25 and hit Nelson's Column to within 4 metres. That's around 15 miles. Some of the extended ranges are 25 miles, which enables the Queen sitting in Windsor Castle to hit Canary Wharf. One of these at Anfield could almost hit Old Trafford.
The clips I find the most amazing are those filmed from commercial drones, showing a single tank or IFV hiding among some houses or trees, which then gets blown up by one or two direct hits from artillery. There doesn't appear to be any ranging or adjustment (as evidenced by a lack of damage to the houses); just a hit first time. Presumably the drone knows exactly where it is and so does the gun, but it's still very impressive. The manufacturing tolerances on the howitzers and shells must be wafer-thin.
Something something hammer something something nail

User avatar
sTeamTraen
After Pie
Posts: 2551
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:24 pm
Location: Palma de Mallorca, Spain

Re: Blyatskrieg

Post by sTeamTraen » Tue May 03, 2022 10:55 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 3:11 am
Detailed and comprehensive thread on Russian problems and incompetence in the Donbas offensive: https://twitter.com/ian_matveev/status/ ... YeGHZ6m9Iw

It’s in Russian but Twitter’s translate function seems to work well.
I like how the Russian for "thread" in the Internet sense is "Тред", pronounced "Tred". A very quick check with Deepl suggests that this is not the Russian word for any of the other English meanings of "thread".
Something something hammer something something nail

User avatar
EACLucifer
Stummy Beige
Posts: 4177
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:49 am
Location: In Sumerian Haze

Re: Blyatskrieg

Post by EACLucifer » Tue May 03, 2022 11:54 pm

This is a suboptimal way to park vehicles in a warzone

Image

User avatar
bolo
Dorkwood
Posts: 1016
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:17 pm
Location: Washington DC

Re: Blyatskrieg

Post by bolo » Wed May 04, 2022 12:12 am

Suboptimal for whom?

User avatar
EACLucifer
Stummy Beige
Posts: 4177
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:49 am
Location: In Sumerian Haze

Re: Blyatskrieg

Post by EACLucifer » Wed May 04, 2022 12:16 am

Over the last few days Ukraine has been systematically attacking the garrison occupying Snake Island with their TB2 Bayraktar drones, targetting air defences, munitions, a command building and, most dramatically, a couple of high speed patrol boats destroyed while on the move.

The chances of Ukraine retaking Snake Island at this point are effectively zero, but there a couple of interesting possibilities as to why they are doing it.

Firstly, they could be trying to render the occupation untenable to the point the Russians are forced to withdraw. That would have a practical effect - it would stop the Russians from installing air defence systems that could protect an attack on Odesa from Ukrainian air attack and allow Ukraine to operate more readily over the Black Sea - and also a significant morale effect, as Snake Island was where the garrison told Moskva what to do.

Secondly, they could be trying to force the Russians to reinforce the position. If the position is reinforced, that's troops and equipment sent to Snake Island, which then can't be used elsewhere. They could also potentially be trying to draw in ships to reinforce the island as it is within Neptune range of the mainland - Moskva was fairly near Snake Island when she was sunk.

User avatar
EACLucifer
Stummy Beige
Posts: 4177
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:49 am
Location: In Sumerian Haze

Re: Blyatskrieg

Post by EACLucifer » Wed May 04, 2022 12:17 am

bolo wrote:
Wed May 04, 2022 12:12 am
Suboptimal for whom?
The owners of the trucks.

Former owners, that is, or perhaps owners of things that were formerly trucks.

User avatar
Woodchopper
Princess POW
Posts: 7057
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:05 am

Re: Blyatskrieg

Post by Woodchopper » Wed May 04, 2022 6:34 am

Approximate disposition of forces: https://twitter.com/hn_schlottman/statu ... nOEZL5zG-A

If correct it’s puzzling why there haven’t been more Russian advances from Zaporizhzia or Donetsk. One explanation could be that the units there are of low quality. Either badly damaged in the battles round Kyiv or more likely comprising elements of poorly trained and equipped units from the separatist regions of Donetsk and Luhansk.

User avatar
Woodchopper
Princess POW
Posts: 7057
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:05 am

Re: Blyatskrieg

Post by Woodchopper » Wed May 04, 2022 6:43 am

Detailed thread on the situation in the Donbas: https://twitter.com/jominiw/status/1521 ... nOEZL5zG-A

tl;dr Russia may be able to continue to make slow incremental advances and put pressure on Ukrainian units by June.

However, beyond the scope of that thread is the ability of Ukraine to make gains elsewhere and force Russia to move units out of the Donbas to defend other areas.

User avatar
EACLucifer
Stummy Beige
Posts: 4177
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:49 am
Location: In Sumerian Haze

Re: Blyatskrieg

Post by EACLucifer » Wed May 04, 2022 8:39 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Wed May 04, 2022 6:43 am
Detailed thread on the situation in the Donbas: https://twitter.com/jominiw/status/1521 ... nOEZL5zG-A

tl;dr Russia may be able to continue to make slow incremental advances and put pressure on Ukrainian units by June.

However, beyond the scope of that thread is the ability of Ukraine to make gains elsewhere and force Russia to move units out of the Donbas to defend other areas.
A major factor in the current slow, grinding advances by the Russians is their use of artillery; Ukrainian troops are better off pulling back a bit rather than remaining under that sort of firepower, and so the Russians can advance, but it is very slow.

To counter this, Ukraine's armed forces need to counter Russian artillery.

One way would be with counter-battery fire to destroy the Russian guns and rocket launchers. They are already doing this, and the Ukrainian gunners are extremely skilled in their use of artillery, but to neutralise the Russian advances, they need to do even more of it. To do this, they need to locate the Russian guns, and destroy them. Western aid is providing artillery pieces to do the latter, but it also includes counter-battery radars, to quickly locate Russian artillery to enable return fire.

The other way to do this is to starve the artillery. This is how it was done around Kyiv. Artillery gets through a remarkable amount of supplies. A 152mm shell weighs the best part of 50kg - and it will be more than that for each round fired due to the propellant and packaging - and a 203mm shell weighs >100kg. Rocket artillery units like the BM-21 Grad need an entire truck load of rockets for every full salvo. Ukraine's armed forces have had eight years practise of trench warfare. It takes an enormous concentration of firepower in both space and time to force troops out of a properly dug trench system. If their supplies to the front are slowed and disrupted, they will no longer be able to concentrate that much firepower as often as they need to to maintain any forward progress.

A number of analysts are talking about the Russian offensive in the east potentially culminating in the next week or two. I hope they are right. If that happens, it could go several ways. In Trostyanets, the Russian position collapsed, while around Kyiv they withdrew under fire, and while they did not completely collapse, they suffered heavy casualties on the way. On the other hand, the long narrow salients they'd formed to attack Kyiv were exceptionally vulnerable to counter-attack - in the Donbas, the Russians may be more able to transition to defence and hold ground when their attack culminates.

As always, there is no way to be sure - war is filled with uncertainty.

User avatar
EACLucifer
Stummy Beige
Posts: 4177
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:49 am
Location: In Sumerian Haze

Re: Blyatskrieg

Post by EACLucifer » Wed May 04, 2022 12:15 pm

Ukrainians have set up a pontoon bridge at Protopopivka, over the Serversky Donets, to threaten the flank of the Russian advance south from Izyum. All in all, if you are attacking and the other side is not blowing up bridges but actually putting them up to better get at you, it's a sign things aren't going too well.

User avatar
sTeamTraen
After Pie
Posts: 2551
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:24 pm
Location: Palma de Mallorca, Spain

Re: Blyatskrieg

Post by sTeamTraen » Wed May 04, 2022 10:09 pm

EACLucifer wrote:
Wed May 04, 2022 12:16 am
Over the last few days Ukraine has been systematically attacking the garrison occupying Snake Island with their TB2 Bayraktar drones, targetting air defences, munitions, a command building and, most dramatically, a couple of high speed patrol boats destroyed while on the move.
From the map/aerial view it seems that Snake Island is about the size of the Bluewater shopping centre and has about 10 huts on it. I'm wondering how many hits you would need.
Something something hammer something something nail

User avatar
Woodchopper
Princess POW
Posts: 7057
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:05 am

Re: Blyatskrieg

Post by Woodchopper » Thu May 05, 2022 12:07 pm

Thread: https://twitter.com/phillipspobrien/sta ... PlHdwxfzBw

Russia is taking old equipment out of storage while Ukraine gets new equipment from abroad (and captures it from Russia). The old Russian equipment will be of far lower quality and may need a lot of work to get it into a serviceable condition. The new equipment Ukraine is getting is much better quality, but the heavy weapons are still being supplied in small quantities.

User avatar
jdc
Hilda Ogden
Posts: 1925
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:31 pm
Location: Your Mum

Re: Blyatskrieg

Post by jdc » Thu May 05, 2022 2:35 pm

Found this in my bookmarks from last week: https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/sta ... 9112919040
Deputy Defense Minister: Russia has fired 1,300 missiles at Ukraine since start of Russia's full-scale invasion.

Deputy Defense Minister Anna Malyar said Russia’s reserves of available missiles have more than halved since Feb. 24.

User avatar
EACLucifer
Stummy Beige
Posts: 4177
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:49 am
Location: In Sumerian Haze

Re: Blyatskrieg

Post by EACLucifer » Thu May 05, 2022 7:29 pm

One bit of kit Britain is reportedly sending are cargo drones - big quadcopters designed to carry up to 68kg for some distance.

The question I have is this: are they going to be used for their intended purpose of delivering cargo, or are the Ukrainians going to bodge them into the heavy bomber of the multi-copter drone world, and use them to drop heavy mortar bombs/artillery shells/loads of grenades/other disagreeable objects on Russian positions.

User avatar
jimbob
Light of Blast
Posts: 5276
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:04 pm
Location: High Peak/Manchester

Re: Blyatskrieg

Post by jimbob » Thu May 05, 2022 8:02 pm

EACLucifer wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 7:29 pm
One bit of kit Britain is reportedly sending are cargo drones - big quadcopters designed to carry up to 68kg for some distance.

The question I have is this: are they going to be used for their intended purpose of delivering cargo, or are the Ukrainians going to bodge them into the heavy bomber of the multi-copter drone world, and use them to drop heavy mortar bombs/artillery shells/loads of grenades/other disagreeable objects on Russian positions.
68kg doesn't seem very much, unless it's for very specific uses.

I note that there is reported partisan activity in South Eastern Ukraine

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgr ... ment-may-4

Maybe such drones would be useful for that if they have the range and likelihood of getting through. It seems more an amount that would be useful for smallish ground forces than anything else.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

User avatar
jimbob
Light of Blast
Posts: 5276
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:04 pm
Location: High Peak/Manchester

Re: Blyatskrieg

Post by jimbob » Thu May 05, 2022 8:13 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaiVjJWOUWE
How did Ukraine sink Russia's flagship cruiser Moskva with two missiles? The ship can defend itself, so something must have gone wrong. In this video I discuss the problem of manual work processes in missile defense, and I speculate that operator fatigue is a vulnerability in many of Russia's weapons.

0:00 Intro
0:51 Moskva was a fantastic target
2:05 Why did it sink?
3:41 Two ways to beat a missile defense
5:30 The Russian approach to procedures
7:41 Inside a Russian warship
10:02 The problem with manual processes
11:40 Missile defense requires fast response
12:19 Did operator fatigue sink Moskva?
13:40 Wake-up call for all navies
14:09 TEWA-systems
15:26 User interface as a Russian vulnerability
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

User avatar
EACLucifer
Stummy Beige
Posts: 4177
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:49 am
Location: In Sumerian Haze

Re: Blyatskrieg

Post by EACLucifer » Thu May 05, 2022 8:24 pm

jimbob wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 8:02 pm
EACLucifer wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 7:29 pm
One bit of kit Britain is reportedly sending are cargo drones - big quadcopters designed to carry up to 68kg for some distance.

The question I have is this: are they going to be used for their intended purpose of delivering cargo, or are the Ukrainians going to bodge them into the heavy bomber of the multi-copter drone world, and use them to drop heavy mortar bombs/artillery shells/loads of grenades/other disagreeable objects on Russian positions.
68kg doesn't seem very much, unless it's for very specific uses.

I note that there is reported partisan activity in South Eastern Ukraine

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgr ... ment-may-4

Maybe such drones would be useful for that if they have the range and likelihood of getting through. It seems more an amount that would be useful for smallish ground forces than anything else.
>6000 rounds of 5.45x39, 20 or so AK74s, >100 hand grenades, >6 anti-tank mines or >20 person-days of rations, depending on how it's packed.

So no, not a huge amount of use for supplying large, regular formations, but a few deliveries could support partisans or SOF for a while.

But that payload capacity could also be used for a thermal camera and one of the following options;

1x152mm artillery shell
2-3x122mm artillery shell
4x120mm mortar bomb
~20x82mm mortar bomb
~60 RKG1600s - the munition Aerorozvidka are using with quadcopters

And potentially, if a way could be found to designate the target up to 10 MAM-C or 2 MAM-L munitions, the latter already in use with Bayraktar TB2s.

User avatar
jimbob
Light of Blast
Posts: 5276
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:04 pm
Location: High Peak/Manchester

Re: Blyatskrieg

Post by jimbob » Thu May 05, 2022 9:37 pm

EACLucifer wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 8:24 pm
jimbob wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 8:02 pm
EACLucifer wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 7:29 pm
One bit of kit Britain is reportedly sending are cargo drones - big quadcopters designed to carry up to 68kg for some distance.

The question I have is this: are they going to be used for their intended purpose of delivering cargo, or are the Ukrainians going to bodge them into the heavy bomber of the multi-copter drone world, and use them to drop heavy mortar bombs/artillery shells/loads of grenades/other disagreeable objects on Russian positions.
68kg doesn't seem very much, unless it's for very specific uses.

I note that there is reported partisan activity in South Eastern Ukraine

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgr ... ment-may-4

Maybe such drones would be useful for that if they have the range and likelihood of getting through. It seems more an amount that would be useful for smallish ground forces than anything else.
>6000 rounds of 5.45x39, 20 or so AK74s, >100 hand grenades, >6 anti-tank mines or >20 person-days of rations, depending on how it's packed.

So no, not a huge amount of use for supplying large, regular formations, but a few deliveries could support partisans or SOF for a while.

But that payload capacity could also be used for a thermal camera and one of the following options;

1x152mm artillery shell
2-3x122mm artillery shell
4x120mm mortar bomb
~20x82mm mortar bomb
~60 RKG1600s - the munition Aerorozvidka are using with quadcopters

And potentially, if a way could be found to designate the target up to 10 MAM-C or 2 MAM-L munitions, the latter already in use with Bayraktar TB2s.


So no, not a huge amount of use for supplying large, regular formations, but a few deliveries could support partisans or SOF for a while.



Indeed, so what is the user case for the British armed forces? Being cooler than the US military robot mules?
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

User avatar
dyqik
Princess POW
Posts: 7526
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:19 pm
Location: Masshole
Contact:

Re: Blyatskrieg

Post by dyqik » Thu May 05, 2022 9:44 pm

EACLucifer wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 8:24 pm
jimbob wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 8:02 pm
EACLucifer wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 7:29 pm
One bit of kit Britain is reportedly sending are cargo drones - big quadcopters designed to carry up to 68kg for some distance.

The question I have is this: are they going to be used for their intended purpose of delivering cargo, or are the Ukrainians going to bodge them into the heavy bomber of the multi-copter drone world, and use them to drop heavy mortar bombs/artillery shells/loads of grenades/other disagreeable objects on Russian positions.
68kg doesn't seem very much, unless it's for very specific uses.

I note that there is reported partisan activity in South Eastern Ukraine

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgr ... ment-may-4

Maybe such drones would be useful for that if they have the range and likelihood of getting through. It seems more an amount that would be useful for smallish ground forces than anything else.
>6000 rounds of 5.45x39, 20 or so AK74s, >100 hand grenades, >6 anti-tank mines or >20 person-days of rations, depending on how it's packed.

So no, not a huge amount of use for supplying large, regular formations, but a few deliveries could support partisans or SOF for a while.

But that payload capacity could also be used for a thermal camera and one of the following options;

1x152mm artillery shell
2-3x122mm artillery shell
4x120mm mortar bomb
~20x82mm mortar bomb
~60 RKG1600s - the munition Aerorozvidka are using with quadcopters

And potentially, if a way could be found to designate the target up to 10 MAM-C or 2 MAM-L munitions, the latter already in use with Bayraktar TB2s.
Could probably deliver two or three MANPADS or four javelin missiles to small infantry groups?

Post Reply