France

Discussions about serious topics, for serious people
User avatar
Woodchopper
Princess POW
Posts: 7057
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:05 am

Re: France

Post by Woodchopper » Mon Apr 25, 2022 9:58 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 9:34 am

For instance, stopping girls who wear veils from going to school counts as demonising in my book. Nowhere else in Western Europe targets Muslims (domestically) to the same extent.
Difficult to measure these things but about half of EEA members states have some kind of national or regional laws that in effect prohibit the wearing of veils etc in certain contexts. By 'in effect' I mean that in some cases the laws are directed against any overtly religious clothing (eg also affect Sikhs) but the vast majority of those affected are female Muslims.

ETA by 'veils etc' I mean different kinds of head covering, eg some places only ban garments that cover the face.

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Princess POW
Posts: 10137
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: France

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Apr 25, 2022 10:12 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 9:58 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 9:34 am

For instance, stopping girls who wear veils from going to school counts as demonising in my book. Nowhere else in Western Europe targets Muslims (domestically) to the same extent.
Difficult to measure these things but about half of EEA members states have some kind of national or regional laws that in effect prohibit the wearing of veils etc in certain contexts. By 'in effect' I mean that in some cases the laws are directed against any overtly religious clothing (eg also affect Sikhs) but the vast majority of those affected are female Muslims.

ETA by 'veils etc' I mean different kinds of head covering, eg some places only ban garments that cover the face.
Restrictions on, say, state employees in the workplace is a bit different to schoolkids, though.

Similarly provisions to target Muslim organisations specifically seems to be saying the quiet bit out loud compared to other countries' "counter-terrorism" laws.

I agree that France isn't the only country that's nasty towards Muslims. But it's clear that for many this election was a choice between a bad status quo or a worse alternative, rather than any genuinely attractive options offering improvement.
We have the right to a clean, healthy, sustainable environment.

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Princess POW
Posts: 10137
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: France

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Apr 25, 2022 10:17 am

And fwiw I was chatting with a Moroccan friend on Saturday who's finishing his masters and looking around for PhD opportunities. He'll consider France under Macron but wouldn't have under Le Pen - just to be clear that I'm aware they're not equally bad.

We stayed over with a French friend, who was also clear that the vote he cast at the embassy was more a "f.ck Le Pen" than a "yay Macron". And he's a rich white dude, which is Macron's core constituency.
We have the right to a clean, healthy, sustainable environment.

User avatar
Gfamily
Light of Blast
Posts: 5180
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:00 pm
Location: NW England

Re: France

Post by Gfamily » Mon Apr 25, 2022 10:52 am

According to the Guardian, 45% of Melenchon's first round voters abstained in the second
French Election.PNG
French Election.PNG (52.87 KiB) Viewed 1287 times
https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-in ... ine-le-pen
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!

User avatar
Opti
Dorkwood
Posts: 1473
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:21 pm
Location: On the beach

Re: France

Post by Opti » Mon Apr 25, 2022 11:08 am

Gfamily wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 10:52 am
According to the Guardian, 45% of Melenchon's first round voters abstained in the second
French Election.PNG
https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-in ... ine-le-pen
How very f.cking principled of them. Sad to say, I know several of them.

Until progressive groupings get their sh.t together this will always be a threat.
Time for a big fat one.

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Princess POW
Posts: 10137
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: France

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Apr 25, 2022 11:34 am

Would also be nice to see centrist groupings actually trying to attract progressive votes, rather than taking them for granted purely by dint of not being an actual fascist.

Politics is about what's possible, and we see time and time again that people in general, especially on the left, don't like to vote in favour of candidates they dislike. Candidates relying on those votes might, therefore, by wise to include something of interest for those voters.
We have the right to a clean, healthy, sustainable environment.

User avatar
Opti
Dorkwood
Posts: 1473
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:21 pm
Location: On the beach

Re: France

Post by Opti » Mon Apr 25, 2022 11:41 am

I suggest that progressives, by being less 'purist' and more pragmatic would have more sway over centrist groups.
Time for a big fat one.

User avatar
EACLucifer
Stummy Beige
Posts: 4177
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:49 am
Location: In Sumerian Haze

Re: France

Post by EACLucifer » Mon Apr 25, 2022 12:04 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 11:34 am
Would also be nice to see centrist groupings actually trying to attract progressive votes, rather than taking them for granted purely by dint of not being an actual fascist.

Politics is about what's possible, and we see time and time again that people in general, especially on the left, don't like to vote in favour of candidates they dislike. Candidates relying on those votes might, therefore, by wise to include something of interest for those voters.
It also might be nice if far left politicians started directing more of their ire at the right wing rather than fixating on the centre-left and centre, which is particularly a thing in the US, but also a thing here in the UK.

I do understand the frustration of not getting what you want offered politically - I'm economically to the left of any mainstream manifesto in my time as a voting age adult - but if you are a minority politically, it's better to accept that and vote for the least worst rather than petulantly demanding you be catered to in every way - again, looking at you American student-debt obsessed anti-Dem agitator morons.

User avatar
Ben B
Stargoon
Posts: 138
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:28 pm
Location: Uranus

Re: France

Post by Ben B » Mon Apr 25, 2022 1:52 pm

Regardless of the worrying amount Le Pen got, it is nice to have a bit of good news for a change
The first ten million years were the worst.
And the second ten million, they were the worst too.

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Princess POW
Posts: 10137
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: France

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Apr 25, 2022 2:26 pm

Opti wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 11:41 am
I suggest that progressives, by being less 'purist' and more pragmatic would have more sway over centrist groups.
Quite possibly. It's a bit chicken-and-egg: do progressives not vote for centrists because they don't like their policies, or do centrists not offer progressive policies because progressives won't vote for them otherwise?

Personally I do think a lot of the responsibility falls on candidates to offer policies their intended voter base supports enthusiastically.
We have the right to a clean, healthy, sustainable environment.

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Princess POW
Posts: 10137
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: France

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Apr 25, 2022 2:26 pm

Ben B wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 1:52 pm
Regardless of the worrying amount Le Pen got, it is nice to have a bit of good news for a change
Definitely a huge sigh of relief.
We have the right to a clean, healthy, sustainable environment.

User avatar
Gfamily
Light of Blast
Posts: 5180
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:00 pm
Location: NW England

Re: France

Post by Gfamily » Mon Apr 25, 2022 2:33 pm

Ben B wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 1:52 pm
Regardless of the worrying amount Le Pen got, it is nice to have a bit of good news for a change
I can see why leftists would want to hold their nose when voting for Macron, and some may have thought that he was polling far enough ahead that their non-votes wouldn't have an impact - except to make it clear that Macron has some work still to do to 'bring France together'.

If I wasn't meant to be working, it would be interesting to calculate what the final percentages would have been like if fewer people had abstained from the second vote.

And, although the 45% of Melenchon voters deciding to abstain is disappointing, what to make of the appx 10% that jumped to Le Pen?
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!

User avatar
Woodchopper
Princess POW
Posts: 7057
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:05 am

Re: France

Post by Woodchopper » Mon Apr 25, 2022 2:54 pm

Gfamily wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 2:33 pm
And, although the 45% of Melenchon voters deciding to abstain is disappointing, what to make of the appx 10% that jumped to Le Pen?
Le Pen's economic policies revolve around French jobs for French workers, and so she is into state subsidies for industries, price controls and tariff barriers. She's against globalization and European integration (as those are perceived to have left French workers to be undercut by lower paid competitors elsewhere). She's also argued for a wealth tax and for under-30 year old's to not pay income tax.

As I'm trying to avoid a Godwin, Le Pen's economic politics look like socialism with national characteristics.

Some people are assuming that the 46% of Mélenchon voters who abstained hate Le Pen but couldn't bring themselves to vote for Macron. Maybe some of them wouldn't see a Le Pen presidency as being that bad.

Herainestold
After Pie
Posts: 2029
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:23 pm

Re: France

Post by Herainestold » Mon Apr 25, 2022 3:15 pm

If you look at Le Pen's domestic economic policies, they are quite progressive.
She wants to reduce the cost of living by reducing VAT from 20% to 5%, nationalize highways to get rid of tolls, protect French domestic agricultural production through quotas and regulation,protect small businesses from foreign competition,eliminate income taxes for people under 30, reduce inheritance tax and reduce the retirement age to 60. Spend 20 billion € on health care, build 100 000 housing units.
In Energy she has the completely illogical plan to increase nuclear and move away from renewables, even pledging to dismantle wind farms. The complete opposite of what should be done.
So you can see why leftists and progressives could vote for her if they are willing to turn a blind eye to the racism and Islamophobia.
Masking forever
Putin is a monster.
Russian socialism will rise again

temptar
Fuzzable
Posts: 282
Joined: Sun May 10, 2020 6:19 pm

Re: France

Post by temptar » Mon Apr 25, 2022 3:40 pm

Tbh, I find it fascinating the extent to which British people are concerned about French politics and voters when Britain has worse governance issues.

In short, current British government apart from being somewhat of a far from meritocratic bunch of very strange people also has some very strangely reactionary policies coming out of the Home Office and Justice.

User avatar
shpalman
Princess POW
Posts: 8244
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:53 pm
Location: One step beyond
Contact:

Re: France

Post by shpalman » Mon Apr 25, 2022 3:42 pm

temptar wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 3:40 pm
Tbh, I find it fascinating the extent to which British people are concerned about French politics and voters when Britain has worse governance issues.

In short, current British government apart from being somewhat of a far from meritocratic bunch of very strange people also has some very strangely reactionary policies coming out of the Home Office and Justice.
But this is a thread about France.
having that swing is a necessary but not sufficient condition for it meaning a thing
@shpalman@mastodon.me.uk

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Princess POW
Posts: 10137
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: France

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Apr 25, 2022 4:06 pm

shpalman wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 3:42 pm
temptar wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 3:40 pm
Tbh, I find it fascinating the extent to which British people are concerned about French politics and voters when Britain has worse governance issues.

In short, current British government apart from being somewhat of a far from meritocratic bunch of very strange people also has some very strangely reactionary policies coming out of the Home Office and Justice.
But this is a thread about France.
Yeah but it's impossible to be interested in more than one country at once, which is why there are no threads about UK politics.
We have the right to a clean, healthy, sustainable environment.

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Princess POW
Posts: 10137
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: France

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:44 am

Now That's! What I Call Dataviz
Attachments
kykvnk1lmov81_copy_800x781.png
kykvnk1lmov81_copy_800x781.png (548.29 KiB) Viewed 1110 times
We have the right to a clean, healthy, sustainable environment.

User avatar
Woodchopper
Princess POW
Posts: 7057
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:05 am

Re: France

Post by Woodchopper » Tue Apr 26, 2022 5:56 am

Herainestold wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 3:15 pm
If you look at Le Pen's domestic economic policies, they are quite progressive.
She wants to reduce the cost of living by reducing VAT from 20% to 5%, nationalize highways to get rid of tolls, protect French domestic agricultural production through quotas and regulation,protect small businesses from foreign competition,eliminate income taxes for people under 30, reduce inheritance tax and reduce the retirement age to 60. Spend 20 billion € on health care, build 100 000 housing units.
In Energy she has the completely illogical plan to increase nuclear and move away from renewables, even pledging to dismantle wind farms. The complete opposite of what should be done.
So you can see why leftists and progressives could vote for her if they are willing to turn a blind eye to the racism and Islamophobia.
Yes, I agree.

Back 20 years ago a lot of leftists and progressives were opposed to globalisation and wanted governments to take action to preserve local jobs for local people (I simplify enormously). For example there was a wave of anti-globalisation protests around the world: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-glob ... n_movement

Since then there has been a political realignment and that sentiment has been taken over by the right.

Holylol
Sindis Poop
Posts: 79
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:14 am

Re: France

Post by Holylol » Tue Apr 26, 2022 7:41 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 9:34 am


For instance, stopping girls who wear veils from going to school counts as demonising in my book. Nowhere else in Western Europe targets Muslims (domestically) to the same extent.
Was a specific law passed by his government? Or are you referring from the 2004 law that forbids wearing religious signs in schools? I am not sure that it stops girls going to school though (since it is mandatory to go to school up to 16 years old in France).
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 9:34 am
Similarly, the security law banning reporting on police officers identities plays right into the hands on those who abuse they're authority. Again, unusual in Western European terms.
Have you actually read the law? https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/id ... 2017-03-02
It is not banning on reporting police officer identities, it is more complicated than that. Of course there are ways that it could be abused. The request for anonymity has to be motivated and validated by a superior, so you can imagine it could go wrong. But the ID number will still be accessible for any legal procedures.

User avatar
Woodchopper
Princess POW
Posts: 7057
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:05 am

Re: France

Post by Woodchopper » Mon Jun 13, 2022 8:28 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 7:24 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 1:05 pm
Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 12:47 pm


Mmmmm. I'm not sure that the center is so beleaguered. Over the past few years across Europe the right wing populists have usually failed to take or hold onto power. As well as Spain, Italy and Germany mentioned earlier, there are left wing led coalitions in Sweden and Denmark, and a broad coalition in Belgium. Traditional center right parties are in power in the Netherlands, Czech Republic and Ireland.

Certainly Britain, Poland and Hungary are exceptions. But they don't seem to be part of a general trend.

It kinda seems like the movie from five years ago was The Reactionaries Strike Back whereas the current movie is The Return of The Centre.
Holding offices of power isn't everything, though. Far-right populists are still doing way better than they used to in loads of countries, getting them air time, attention, and the ability to shift the Overton window and push their politics.

Portugal went from a broad-left confidence-and-supply to centre-left majority at the last election, but the big talking point is that the far right went from 1 to 12 MPs, gaining ground from the centre-right.

My impression is that far-right populists are growing, as part of a general trend across Europe, e.g. the formation of the Identity and Democracy group in the EU Parliament etc. Which is a worrying trend given the likely prospects for the next decade: more crises, more refugees and more economic disruption.
I agree that there the populist right has far more support than it had ten or twenty years ago. However, someone who quoted WB Yates that "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;" would be going too far. With the exception of the UK, Hungary and Poland, across Europe mainstream centre left and centre right politics has been able to prevent the right wing populists from actually doing very much.

But I agree that it has had an important effect in that the rise of the populist right has shifted the window of what is politically feasible. The Centre holding is a good alternative to the populist right taking over government. But there doesn't seem to be a realistic prospect of anyone further left taking power. But things change.
For a small detail Éric Zemmour just came third in his own constituency: https://twitter.com/renaudpila/status/1 ... OJNdjBmNHw

User avatar
dyqik
Princess POW
Posts: 7527
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:19 pm
Location: Masshole
Contact:

Re: France

Post by dyqik » Mon Jun 13, 2022 6:48 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Jun 13, 2022 8:28 am
For a small detail Éric Zemmour just came third in his own constituency: https://twitter.com/renaudpila/status/1 ... OJNdjBmNHw
Trump did worse than that in 2016 in his home districts of Manhattan (10%) and Queens (22%).

Holylol
Sindis Poop
Posts: 79
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:14 am

Re: France

Post by Holylol » Tue Jun 14, 2022 7:49 am

dyqik wrote:
Mon Jun 13, 2022 6:48 pm
Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Jun 13, 2022 8:28 am
For a small detail Éric Zemmour just came third in his own constituency: https://twitter.com/renaudpila/status/1 ... OJNdjBmNHw
Trump did worse than that in 2016 in his home districts of Manhattan (10%) and Queens (22%).
I think the difference here is that he (Zemmour) can choose the constituency where he wants to be candidate. And the South-East has been voting for the far-right for a while now. He is third with almost 23%, but the Rassemblement National candidate is 2nd with 25%.

So if his votes go to the RN, there might still be a far-right representative for this constituency.

Post Reply