Poor Brexit outcomes

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jimbob
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Re: Poor Brexit outcomes

Post by jimbob » Tue Feb 07, 2023 7:38 pm

jimbob wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 5:35 pm
John Major states the obvious

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... dApp_Other
John Major has launched a scathing attack on Boris Johnson’s handling of Brexit, saying his administration agreed to the Northern Ireland protocol despite knowing it was unworkable.

“That must be the first agreement in history that was signed by people who decided it was useless in the first place,” Major told a Westminster committee on Tuesday
Also good speech from Michael Heseltine


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEA3RF5UZc0
My Lords, I salute the two excellent maiden speeches that we have heard today. I am one of the few surviving members of Margaret Thatcher’s first Government and I am amazed to find myself sitting here listening to the arguments from the Front Bench as to why her greatest achievement should be sacrificed. I remember Arthur Cockfield: he is not, perhaps, a household name today, but if you look him up in Wikipedia, you will see him described as the “father of the Common Market”, and that is right. Margaret—not a natural supporter of foreigners—saw very clearly that the mistakes of the common agricultural policy must not be made again, so she sent Arthur Cockfield to Brussels as a commissioner in order to make sure that British self-interests were dominant in the negotiation of the single market.

The single market was historically, perhaps, one of the most extraordinarily successful concepts ever developed by humankind. The implementation was difficult, against difficult economic circumstances and endless forms—small employers at night, having done all the work themselves, finding yet another form—and the flame was fanned by those two great arbiters of British self-interest, Rupert Murdoch and Conrad Black. There was a growing resentment, and John Major inherited the problem. “Go to it, Tarzan”, he said to the Tory Party conference.
I was entrusted with the first serious attempt to look at the real effect of all these wealth-destroying, uncivilised, burdensome regulations. I went to it with all the enthusiasm that I hope noble Lords would expect of me. What did I do? I was entrusted with a Minister of State in every department to worm away, dig it all out. I set up public/private-sector committees for each field of activity, led by some of the most strident critics of the regulatory process. I actually published 3,000 of these regulations, so that nothing was hidden from anybody. “Let’s know what we’re all talking about in detail: here they are, great volumes of stuff”. I did something else: I wrote to every trade association and I said, “Look, I’m your man. All you’ve got to do is send me a regulation as drafted that is holding your members back and undermining the country, and send me an alternative draft”. I did not get any replies.

The issue is, of course, central to Brexit. Once the decision was taken—I was rather against it—it was important to get on and do something about the new world, because the uncertainty was bound to be burdensome and frustrating. I thought it was absolutely right that the principal Brexiteers were put in charge of the show: Boris Johnson, David Davis and Liam Toggle showing location ofColumn 1019Fox. They, after all, presumably knew what the opportunities were, what needed to be done and what was holding us back, so they were in charge. Well, that did not last long. We had Jacob Rees-Mogg, with his Robespierrean fanaticism, and a whole new government department called Exiting the European Union. Let us not get carried away: the nameplate on the door changed. With Robespierrean fanaticism, he threw himself into the task. There was an uncharacteristic lack of history here, because of course Robespierre followed Louis XIV to the guillotine. Well, it is a more generous and kinder world that we live in today. Four Prime Ministers later, Jacob Rees-Mogg is back on the Back Benches. Dozens of Ministers have lost their jobs. I say to my noble friends on the Front Bench, “Beware: here today, gone tomorrow”. That has an ominous ring for anyone who becomes mired in this Brexit saga.
The essence, of course, is that, for all the empty generalisations, all the promises and all that new world, there was nothing there. This Bill demonstrates beyond peradventure that they did not know what they were doing. Six years on, they did not know what they were doing. They have now actually created a giant question mark over a whole realm of regulations that are the custodian that separates us from the law of the jungle. They are what defines a civilised society. At a time of economic stress, when we need desperately to increase the levels of investment in our economy, what have they provided? A giant question mark for anyone seeking to know whether to spend a penny piece in the United Kingdom economy. I beg noble Lords not to let this legislation leave this place unscathed.
Hansard

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Lords/202 ... 6CB70FD8F8
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Poor Brexit outcomes

Post by noggins » Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:35 pm

On the plus side when leave the EHCR the government will be able to ban p.rn, which will be nice.

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Re: Poor Brexit outcomes

Post by JQH » Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:52 pm

noggins wrote:
Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:35 pm
On the plus side when leave the EHCR the government will be able to ban p.rn, which will be nice.
Nah. The p.rn industry will make a contribution to the Tory election fund and that will be the last we hear of it.
And remember that if you botch the exit, the carnival of reaction may be coming to a town near you.

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Re: Poor Brexit outcomes

Post by noggins » Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:16 pm

But that would actually be too economically rational for this lot.

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Re: Poor Brexit outcomes

Post by Martin Y » Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:02 pm

jimbob wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 7:38 pm
Also good speech from Michael Heseltine
... Boris Johnson, David Davis and Liam Toggle showing location ofColumn 1019Fox.
Hansard
That's one hell of a nickname Fox has gained. Makes me wonder what he's been up to since he told us Brexit would be a triumph then promptly vanished.

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Re: Poor Brexit outcomes

Post by dyqik » Thu Feb 09, 2023 11:41 am

JQH wrote:
Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:52 pm
noggins wrote:
Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:35 pm
On the plus side when leave the EHCR the government will be able to ban p.rn, which will be nice.
Nah. The p.rn industry will make a contribution to the Tory election fund and that will be the last we hear of it.
They'll ban it for the public, but MPs will get a free pass on the grounds of parliamentary privilege.

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Re: Poor Brexit outcomes

Post by dyqik » Thu Feb 09, 2023 11:42 am

Martin Y wrote:
Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:02 pm
jimbob wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 7:38 pm
Also good speech from Michael Heseltine
... Boris Johnson, David Davis and Liam Toggle showing location ofColumn 1019Fox.
Hansard
That's one hell of a nickname Fox has gained. Makes me wonder what he's been up to since he told us Brexit would be a triumph then promptly vanished.
I believe that that's the column in his massive Excel sheet economic model that shows that the benefits are just around the corner. He keeps banging on about it.

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Re: Poor Brexit outcomes

Post by FlammableFlower » Thu Feb 16, 2023 4:40 pm

John Redwood being thick as mince (again).

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Re: Poor Brexit outcomes

Post by bjn » Thu Feb 16, 2023 4:54 pm

FlammableFlower wrote:
Thu Feb 16, 2023 4:40 pm
John Redwood being thick as mince (again).
Why assume stupidity over mendacity? Then again, there is always the “why not both?” option.

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Re: Poor Brexit outcomes

Post by Little waster » Thu Feb 16, 2023 6:13 pm

bjn wrote:
Thu Feb 16, 2023 4:54 pm
FlammableFlower wrote:
Thu Feb 16, 2023 4:40 pm
John Redwood being thick as mince (again).
Why assume stupidity over mendacity? Then again, there is always the “why not both?” option.
One of the many worrying trends of the 21st Century is the inexplicable rise of the Stupid Evil in the West.

The Stupid are always with us, the Evil are always with us, and for millennia there has been a continual battle to keep them both away from the levers of power, with tragic results when it has failed.

We've had Stupid Evil people rise to power individually occasionally in the past, and their names are remembered as a warning for future generations, but I can't remember an example of a civilization ever going out of their way to install the Stupid Evil en masse before. This isn't going to end well.

Interesting times ...
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Re: Poor Brexit outcomes

Post by shpalman » Tue Feb 21, 2023 11:15 pm

Yes! We* have no tomatoes

* you
having that swing is a necessary but not sufficient condition for it meaning a thing
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Re: Poor Brexit outcomes

Post by Little waster » Tue Feb 21, 2023 11:28 pm

shpalman wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 11:15 pm
Yes! We* have no tomatoes

* you
WhY DiD NoBoDy TeLl Us MoSt Of OuR iMpOrTs CaMe FrOm AbRoAd!
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Re: Poor Brexit outcomes

Post by WFJ » Wed Feb 22, 2023 11:01 pm

shpalman wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 11:15 pm
Yes! We* have no tomatoes

* you
Not sure this one is entirely brexit related. I haven't seen any rationing, but cucumber and pepper prices have basically doubled in Germany in the last few weeks. Fruit and veg prices are much more seasonal even at normal times than I remember in the UK, but the prices recently have been crazy, eg cucumbers for over 2 € each and peppers for over 9 €/Kg at normal supermarkets.

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Re: Poor Brexit outcomes

Post by Gfamily » Wed Feb 22, 2023 11:24 pm

WFJ wrote:
Wed Feb 22, 2023 11:01 pm
shpalman wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 11:15 pm
Yes! We* have no tomatoes

* you
Not sure this one is entirely brexit related. I haven't seen any rationing, but cucumber and pepper prices have basically doubled in Germany in the last few weeks. Fruit and veg prices are much more seasonal even at normal times than I remember in the UK, but the prices recently have been crazy, eg cucumbers for over 2 € each and peppers for over 9 €/Kg at normal supermarkets.
I've seen an analysis (possibly linked to by someone here ), that:
- there was a proposal (and some funding) for a "post Brexit dedicated Morocco-to-UK freight line",
- but it never happened (with the loss of £35m en route)
- meaning that the current supply chains to UK are small, travel through the EU (so with two significant border transfers),
- and represent more hassle and less value than simply supplying to EU dealers.

We'd be at the end of the supply chains anyway, and it probably doesn't help that we've added extra admin on top.
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Re: Poor Brexit outcomes

Post by jdc » Thu Feb 23, 2023 12:49 am

Gfamily wrote:
Wed Feb 22, 2023 11:24 pm
WFJ wrote:
Wed Feb 22, 2023 11:01 pm
shpalman wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 11:15 pm
Yes! We* have no tomatoes

* you
Not sure this one is entirely brexit related. I haven't seen any rationing, but cucumber and pepper prices have basically doubled in Germany in the last few weeks. Fruit and veg prices are much more seasonal even at normal times than I remember in the UK, but the prices recently have been crazy, eg cucumbers for over 2 € each and peppers for over 9 €/Kg at normal supermarkets.
I've seen an analysis (possibly linked to by someone here ), that:
- there was a proposal (and some funding) for a "post Brexit dedicated Morocco-to-UK freight line",
- but it never happened (with the loss of £35m en route)
- meaning that the current supply chains to UK are small, travel through the EU (so with two significant border transfers),
- and represent more hassle and less value than simply supplying to EU dealers.

We'd be at the end of the supply chains anyway, and it probably doesn't help that we've added extra admin on top.
That sounds a lot like the thread that shpalman's linked to in the post you're quoting.

It was £35k in that one though.

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Re: Poor Brexit outcomes

Post by Opti » Thu Feb 23, 2023 8:43 am

There are no food shortages here in Spain. Probably just a sad coincidence that Spain is in the EU and the UK isn't.
Time for a big fat one.

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Re: Poor Brexit outcomes

Post by IvanV » Thu Feb 23, 2023 8:48 am

The Retained EU Law Bill has passed its second reading, and so continues to make progress through parliament. There is some kind of a hope that at some point the Lords, or rebel minorities in the Conservative Party, will block or eviscerate it, but so far there is no sign of that.

Why is this in "poor Brexit outcomes"? Well, as that highly left-wing elite organisation, as apparently all who are not true believers in Brexit can be characterised, the Law Society, says,
The Retained EU Law Bill could have a devastating impact on legal certainty in the UK and negatively impact its status as an internationally competitive business environment.

We’re especially concerned about the:

speed of the changes
level of scrutiny
confusion for businesses and consumers
risks to trade agreements with the EU

The speed at which government intends to review retained EU law is a recipe for bad law-making and, coupled with bypassing parliamentary scrutiny and stakeholder consultation, could yield a period of uncertainty over the status of regulations.

We recommend the government extends the timeline for reform and removes the deadline of 31 December 2023.

The bill also raises key constitutional questions which would lead to confusion for businesses and consumers alike around:

ministerial powers and parliamentary sovereignty
devolution settlements, with the nations of the UK potentially enforcing different regulations

In areas such as employment law, workers could lose access to long-established rights that now form an integral part of Britain’s reputation as a fair society, such as holiday pay or protection against fire and rehire.

We’ve called on the government to publish an exhaustive list of every piece of legislation being revoked under the sunset clause to ensure adequate scrutiny of the affected laws.

The bill could also have a significant impact on the UK’s relationship with the EU, threatening the UK-EU Trade and Cooperation Agreement (TCA) that many sectors depend on, including legal services.
The reason that they call on the government to publish an exhaustive list is that apparently they can't. One day it was said to be somewhat over 2000 items of law repealed, a little later it was well over 3000. And so they don't even know exactly what they are repealing, hence the issues of legal uncertainty. And it is likely to be the case that in many cases, we need some kind of regulations in the absence of EU regulations. With potentially thousands of requirements for that, how can we possibly organise it all by end of 2023 when according to this they all cease to have effect. So there is a risk of creating numerous places for people to drive a coach and horses through societal norms with potentially large impacts on the environment, quality of goods and services, people's established rights, etc. And as to whether by doing this we have completely or partially destroyed the basis on which UK goods and services can be exported to the EU, well I suspect the EU is keeping their mouth shut for now.

This is the hard right Brexiteers in the Conservative Party continuing their culture war of Brexit, to cause maximum damage, even though the there is nothing like a majority in the country for such a hard implementation of Brexit. And the structures around it to allow the government to implement all sorts of replacement regulations with minimal scrutiny, has all the Trump-like constitutional damage that is increasingly the means of the extreme right propagating their political cold war.

FAOD, this does not repeal anything that is in UK primary legislation.

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Re: Poor Brexit outcomes

Post by shpalman » Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:58 am

Opti wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2023 8:43 am
There are no food shortages here in Spain. Probably just a sad coincidence that Spain is in the EU and the UK isn't.
I haven't noticed shortages or ridiculous prices in Italy either but my mum says things are disproportionately expensive in Slovakia compared to the bit of England she was in (Lincoln).
having that swing is a necessary but not sufficient condition for it meaning a thing
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Re: Poor Brexit outcomes

Post by dyqik » Thu Feb 23, 2023 11:32 am

IvanV wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2023 8:48 am
And as to whether by doing this we have completely or partially destroyed the basis on which UK goods and services can be exported to the EU, well I suspect the EU is keeping their mouth shut for now.
Not just exported to the EU - quite a few other import standards for other countries will likely have been agreed or implemented on the basis that EU regs met or exceeded that country's standards. Removing the regs that implement EU standards may well effectively remove regs that implement US standards*, for example, or even ISO standards, as well.

*Although the US is probably not the best example here, as it likes to go it alone on regulations.

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Re: Poor Brexit outcomes

Post by basementer » Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:29 pm

jdc wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2023 12:49 am
Gfamily wrote:
Wed Feb 22, 2023 11:24 pm
WFJ wrote:
Wed Feb 22, 2023 11:01 pm


Not sure this one is entirely brexit related. I haven't seen any rationing, but cucumber and pepper prices have basically doubled in Germany in the last few weeks. Fruit and veg prices are much more seasonal even at normal times than I remember in the UK, but the prices recently have been crazy, eg cucumbers for over 2 € each and peppers for over 9 €/Kg at normal supermarkets.
I've seen an analysis (possibly linked to by someone here ), that:
- there was a proposal (and some funding) for a "post Brexit dedicated Morocco-to-UK freight line",
- but it never happened (with the loss of £35m en route)
- meaning that the current supply chains to UK are small, travel through the EU (so with two significant border transfers),
- and represent more hassle and less value than simply supplying to EU dealers.

We'd be at the end of the supply chains anyway, and it probably doesn't help that we've added extra admin on top.
That sounds a lot like the thread that shpalman's linked to in the post you're quoting.

It was £35k in that one though.
The thread has a link to the Companies House listing for the company in question, and the accounts filed there do indeed show a director's loan of GBP35k.
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Re: Poor Brexit outcomes

Post by Sciolus » Thu Mar 02, 2023 8:41 pm

IvanV wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2023 8:48 am
FAOD, this does not repeal anything that is in UK primary legislation.
I'm going to cast doubt on your FAOD. The official list identifies over 300 pieces of primary legislation and over 1500 pieces of secondary legislation that will be "sunsetted" unless they are actively retained.

But it's a terrible, terrible bill. cross-posted from the Public Access to Pollution Data Under Threat thread:
Sciolus wrote:
Thu Mar 02, 2023 8:35 pm
The Retained EU Law bill is the most extraordinarily bad piece of legislation I can think of. It is born of Rees-Mogg's pure blinding hatred of anything EU-related, with no rational justification whatsoever. It gives ministers huge powers to repeal, retain or alter vast amounts of legislation with no oversight, parliamentary scrutiny or accountability. And no-one is sure what it applies to (there is a list of several thousand bits of legislation, but new stuff gets added regularly (or not very regularly in fact) and no-one believes that there isn't a load that has been missed), how it will work, and what effect it will have on the numerous laws which have not been identified. Most of the affected legislation comes under Defra's remit, so their civil servants (slashed over the years of austerity and still trying to sort out the fallout from Defra and the country's sundry environmental problems) now have to figure out what the hell to do with thousands of pieces of legislation whose status is now entirely up in the air.

Defra has said that there will be a presumption to retain legislation, which is contrary to the bill and would seem to render the thing moot. If you believe them.

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Re: Poor Brexit outcomes

Post by jimbob » Thu Mar 02, 2023 8:51 pm

Sciolus wrote:
Thu Mar 02, 2023 8:41 pm
IvanV wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2023 8:48 am
FAOD, this does not repeal anything that is in UK primary legislation.
I'm going to cast doubt on your FAOD. The official list identifies over 300 pieces of primary legislation and over 1500 pieces of secondary legislation that will be "sunsetted" unless they are actively retained.

But it's a terrible, terrible bill. cross-posted from the Public Access to Pollution Data Under Threat thread:
Sciolus wrote:
Thu Mar 02, 2023 8:35 pm
The Retained EU Law bill is the most extraordinarily bad piece of legislation I can think of. It is born of Rees-Mogg's pure blinding hatred of anything EU-related, with no rational justification whatsoever. It gives ministers huge powers to repeal, retain or alter vast amounts of legislation with no oversight, parliamentary scrutiny or accountability. And no-one is sure what it applies to (there is a list of several thousand bits of legislation, but new stuff gets added regularly (or not very regularly in fact) and no-one believes that there isn't a load that has been missed), how it will work, and what effect it will have on the numerous laws which have not been identified. Most of the affected legislation comes under Defra's remit, so their civil servants (slashed over the years of austerity and still trying to sort out the fallout from Defra and the country's sundry environmental problems) now have to figure out what the hell to do with thousands of pieces of legislation whose status is now entirely up in the air.

Defra has said that there will be a presumption to retain legislation, which is contrary to the bill and would seem to render the thing moot. If you believe them.
It gets even worse if you consider how it plays with devolved powers as my brother can tell you. A lot of the regulations are now very ambiguous.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Poor Brexit outcomes

Post by Sciolus » Thu Mar 02, 2023 8:56 pm

Yep. Good overview of some of the problems here.

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Re: Poor Brexit outcomes

Post by Woodchopper » Fri Mar 03, 2023 1:43 pm

More UK companies are drawing up plans to shift their stock market listings to the US, bankers say, in a growing exodus that threatens to undermine London’s effort to reinvent itself as a vibrant hub for global equities.

CRH, the world’s biggest building materials company, on Thursday became the latest business to seek an exit from London, following in the footsteps of gambling group Flutter whose shareholders are due to vote on a secondary US listing in April.

Boards of other companies are discussing similar moves, drawn by a larger, deeper market, higher valuations and the prospect of a government willing to spend hundreds of billions of dollars on infrastructure, according to senior investment bankers.

[...]

London’s attractiveness to companies and investors is a central part of recent attempts by the government to reinvigorate the City of London, through the “Edinburgh reforms” that aim to rip up EU rules to make it competitive against rival financial centres. To boost London’s equity markets, the government will revamp company prospectuses, reconsider short selling rules and review investment research.

The proposals are the most significant shift for Britain’s financial services in a generation but bankers said they may not be enough given the attractions of other exchanges, including the threat of Switzerland and Amsterdam.

Meanwhile, CRH’s departure is a stark reminder that London is already falling behind in the race to retain its most prized companies.

“If anyone was in any doubt that we are in the sh.t, they should be waking up now at least,” said one government adviser.

https://www.ft.com/content/eb872818-22b ... pe=nongift

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Re: Poor Brexit outcomes

Post by Little waster » Fri Mar 03, 2023 2:00 pm

I'm sure this has already come up.

Hardman of Brexit Steve Baker is the real victim here.
The beard, the jewellery, is about my recovery. In November ’21 I had a major mental health crisis. I had anxiety and depression - I couldn’t go on.

“People couldn’t tell. I made a big keynote speech in the afternoon. But make no mistake, holding these tigers by the tail - Brexit, Covid Recovery Group, Net Zero Scrutiny Group, the tax stuff we did with Conservative Way Forward - took its toll.
I mean I have the appropriate amount of sympathy to have for anyone's mental health issues but the bolded bits are a full bingo card of Tory shite-hawkism.

It would be like Ian Brady complaining that no one ever sympathised with him over all the blisters he got digging the graves of those children,.
This place is not a place of honor, no highly esteemed deed is commemorated here, nothing valued is here.
What is here was dangerous and repulsive to us.
This place is best shunned and left uninhabited.

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