Odessa vs Odesa
- Bird on a Fire
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Re: Odessa vs Odesa
I'm slightly unclear as to the relevance of Tartars to what I was saying about Russian language and secession.
According to this it was about 200,000 of them who were forced out. More than that have since returned. The population of Crimea is over 2 million.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Tatars
Obviously ethnic cleansing is bad. But in this case the numbers seem too small to affect the outcome of a referendum. And I'm not sure it justifies suppressing a different minority's language either.
According to this it was about 200,000 of them who were forced out. More than that have since returned. The population of Crimea is over 2 million.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Tatars
Obviously ethnic cleansing is bad. But in this case the numbers seem too small to affect the outcome of a referendum. And I'm not sure it justifies suppressing a different minority's language either.
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Re: Odessa vs Odesa
A history of the population breakdown is here. It is evident that the Russian and Ukrainian population expanded considerably during the Russian Empire and Soviet period, while the Tatar population didn't. So they have become a 10% minority in a region where they were once the 85% majority. Similar things went on in other parts of the USSR and in China, to cement the control of what might be argued to be other people's countries.Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 12:25 pmI'm slightly unclear as to the relevance of Tartars to what I was saying about Russian language and secession.
According to this it was about 200,000 of them who were forced out. More than that have since returned. The population of Crimea is over 2 million.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Tatars
Obviously ethnic cleansing is bad. But in this case the numbers seem too small to affect the outcome of a referendum. And I'm not sure it justifies suppressing a different minority's language either.
The status of Crimea is unusual because Stalin "gifted" it to Ukraine in 1954, as a political gesture, even though its population by then was predominantly Russian. Presumably Stalin thought this a meaningless gesture, given the level of control he exercised over Ukraine.
I did meet a Crimean once, at a barbecue next door. She said "I speak Russian, I have a Ukrainian passport, and I come from Crimea. I'm not able to say more concisely what I am." She felt unable to visit Crimea at that time, as she also had important connections in the main part of Ukraine. It was a criminal offence in Ukraine to go to Crimea via Russia, although that was the only way of getting there.
Re: Odessa vs Odesa
<nitpick> Khrushchev rather than Stalin of course, as the latter was already dead.IvanV wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:01 pm... The status of Crimea is unusual because Stalin "gifted" it to Ukraine in 1954, as a political gesture, even though its population by then was predominantly Russian. Presumably Stalin thought this a meaningless gesture, given the level of control he exercised over Ukraine.
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Re: Odessa vs Odesa
That sounds like an extremely impractical arrangement (and a bit suppressy too).
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Re: Odessa vs Odesa
As for the Tartars, it sounds like they haven't been a majority since the 19th Century. I humbly suggest that the wishes of the people living there now are more important.
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Re: Odessa vs Odesa
Interestingly, "tartar" (meaning "bitch") is still an insult amongst southerners of a certain generation. I've heard two elderly relatives use the word in that way.
If truth is many-sided, mendacity is many-tongued
Re: Odessa vs Odesa
It's difficult isn't it. China is currently packing Tibet with Chinese immigrants so that the same sentiment will ultimately apply.Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:09 pmI humbly suggest that the wishes of the people living there now are more important.
Re: Odessa vs Odesa
And just look at voting patterns in North America.IvanV wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 4:33 pmIt's difficult isn't it. China is currently packing Tibet with Chinese immigrants so that the same sentiment will ultimately apply.Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:09 pmI humbly suggest that the wishes of the people living there now are more important.
Re: Odessa vs Odesa
Their original Eurovision entry withdrew because she visited Crimea in 2015Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:08 pmThat sounds like an extremely impractical arrangement (and a bit suppressy too).
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Re: Odessa vs Odesa
Because of course a country that was invaded by soldiers who snuck in pretending not to be soldiers and annexed part of that territory are going to be entirely open with that aforementioned annexed territoryBird on a Fire wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:08 pmThat sounds like an extremely impractical arrangement (and a bit suppressy too).
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Re: Odessa vs Odesa
The ethnic cleansing is ongoing, and has now expanded into occupied areas of Ukraine other than Crimea - eg the disappearance of Leila IbragimovaBird on a Fire wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:09 pmAs for the Tartars, it sounds like they haven't been a majority since the 19th Century. I humbly suggest that the wishes of the people living there now are more important.
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Re: Odessa vs Odesa
Yeah you're right, the logical response is to make it a criminal offence to go thereEACLucifer wrote: ↑Sat Apr 30, 2022 7:30 amBecause of course a country that was invaded by soldiers who snuck in pretending not to be soldiers and annexed part of that territory are going to be entirely open with that aforementioned annexed territoryBird on a Fire wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:08 pmThat sounds like an extremely impractical arrangement (and a bit suppressy too).
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Re: Odessa vs Odesa
It was lovely thanks really nice people! And the hotel was great too although a bit tricky to get to and from Valencia as the bus was...infrequent, and late.
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Re: Odessa vs Odesa
I'm currently in Collegno near Turin, which in Piemontese is apparently called Turin. It's just the standard Italian (influenced by Tuscan/Florentine dialects) which doesn't tend to like either the U vowel or ending words with consonants. (There's a bit in I Promessi Sposi, written by Manzoni who was from Lecco ie the North near Como and Milan, where he literally can't give the name of a shop or bakery or something because it's just not possible to render the name in Milanese dialect according to the "rules" of what was becoming "standard Italian" in no small part thanks to his book and his decision to write it that way.)
You do often see the local name and the standard name on place signs. Maybe not sign posts but the placards when you enter a place.
You do often see the local name and the standard name on place signs. Maybe not sign posts but the placards when you enter a place.
having that swing is a necessary but not sufficient condition for it meaning a thing
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