Scrutable

I'm slightly unclear as to the relevance of Tartars to what I was saying about Russian language and secession.

According to this it was about 200,000 of them who were forced out. More than that have since returned. The population of Crimea is over 2 million.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Tatars

Obviously ethnic cleansing is bad. But in this case the numbers seem too small to affect the outcome of a referendum. And I'm not sure it justifies suppressing a different minority's language either.

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 29, 2022 12:25 pm

I'm slightly unclear as to the relevance of Tartars to what I was saying about Russian language and secession.

According to this it was about 200,000 of them who were forced out. More than that have since returned. The population of Crimea is over 2 million.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Tatars

Obviously ethnic cleansing is bad. But in this case the numbers seem too small to affect the outcome of a referendum. And I'm not sure it justifies suppressing a different minority's language either.

A history of the population breakdown is here. It is evident that the Russian and Ukrainian population expanded considerably during the Russian Empire and Soviet period, while the Tatar population didn't. So they have become a 10% minority in a region where they were once the 85% majority. Similar things went on in other parts of the USSR and in China, to cement the control of what might be argued to be other people's countries.

The status of Crimea is unusual because Stalin "gifted" it to Ukraine in 1954, as a political gesture, even though its population by then was predominantly Russian. Presumably Stalin thought this a meaningless gesture, given the level of control he exercised over Ukraine.

I did meet a Crimean once, at a barbecue next door. She said "I speak Russian, I have a Ukrainian passport, and I come from Crimea. I'm not able to say more concisely what I am." She felt unable to visit Crimea at that time, as she also had important connections in the main part of Ukraine. It was a criminal offence in Ukraine to go to Crimea via Russia, although that was the only way of getting there.

IvanV wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:01 pm

... The status of Crimea is unusual because Stalin "gifted" it to Ukraine in 1954, as a political gesture, even though its population by then was predominantly Russian. Presumably Stalin thought this a meaningless gesture, given the level of control he exercised over Ukraine.

<nitpick> Khrushchev rather than Stalin of course, as the latter was already dead.

IvanV wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:01 pm

It was a criminal offence in Ukraine to go to Crimea via Russia, although that was the only way of getting there.

That sounds like an extremely impractical arrangement (and a bit suppressy too).

As for the Tartars, it sounds like they haven't been a majority since the 19th Century. I humbly suggest that the wishes of the people living there now are more important.

Interestingly, "tartar" (meaning "bitch") is still an insult amongst southerners of a certain generation. I've heard two elderly relatives use the word in that way.

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:09 pm

I humbly suggest that the wishes of the people living there now are more important.

It's difficult isn't it. China is currently packing Tibet with Chinese immigrants so that the same sentiment will ultimately apply.

IvanV wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 29, 2022 4:33 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:09 pm

I humbly suggest that the wishes of the people living there now are more important.

It's difficult isn't it. China is currently packing Tibet with Chinese immigrants so that the same sentiment will ultimately apply.

And just look at voting patterns in North America.

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:08 pm

IvanV wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:01 pm

It was a criminal offence in Ukraine to go to Crimea via Russia, although that was the only way of getting there.

That sounds like an extremely impractical arrangement (and a bit suppressy too).

Their original Eurovision entry withdrew because she visited Crimea in 2015

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:08 pm

IvanV wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:01 pm

It was a criminal offence in Ukraine to go to Crimea via Russia, although that was the only way of getting there.

That sounds like an extremely impractical arrangement (and a bit suppressy too).

Because of course a country that was invaded by soldiers who snuck in pretending not to be soldiers and annexed part of that territory are going to be entirely open with that aforementioned annexed territory

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:09 pm

As for the Tartars, it sounds like they haven't been a majority since the 19th Century. I humbly suggest that the wishes of the people living there now are more important.

The ethnic cleansing is ongoing, and has now expanded into occupied areas of Ukraine other than Crimea - eg the disappearance of Leila Ibragimova

IvanV wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:01 pm

The status of Crimea is unusual because Stalin "gifted" it to Ukraine in 1954...

Stalin was dead by then, and what of it, Belgorod was part of Ukraine at one point.

EACLucifer wrote: ↑

Sat Apr 30, 2022 7:30 am

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:08 pm

IvanV wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:01 pm

It was a criminal offence in Ukraine to go to Crimea via Russia, although that was the only way of getting there.

That sounds like an extremely impractical arrangement (and a bit suppressy too).

Because of course a country that was invaded by soldiers who snuck in pretending not to be soldiers and annexed part of that territory are going to be entirely open with that aforementioned annexed territory

Yeah you're right, the logical response is to make it a criminal offence to go there

Opti wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 29, 2022 7:39 am

discovolante wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 29, 2022 7:31 am

I recently flew back from Valencia to Edimburgo.

Did you enjoy València? *






* Valencian sp.

It was lovely thanks really nice people! And the hotel was great too although a bit tricky to get to and from Valencia as the bus was...infrequent, and late.

I'm currently in Collegno near Turin, which in Piemontese is apparently called Turin. It's just the standard Italian (influenced by Tuscan/Florentine dialects) which doesn't tend to like either the U vowel or ending words with consonants. (There's a bit in I Promessi Sposi, written by Manzoni who was from Lecco ie the North near Como and Milan, where he literally can't give the name of a shop or bakery or something because it's just not possible to render the name in Milanese dialect according to the "rules" of what was becoming "standard Italian" in no small part thanks to his book and his decision to write it that way.)

You do often see the local name and the standard name on place signs. Maybe not sign posts but the placards when you enter a place.