Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

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wilsontown
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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by wilsontown » Fri May 06, 2022 4:28 pm

Yes, would you fancy your chances, in the US justice system, of being the test case for that defence given the likely penalties if it failed? I know I damned well wouldn't.
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Stranger Mouse
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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by Stranger Mouse » Fri May 06, 2022 4:47 pm

At this rate they’re going to make w.nking a criminal offence unless it’s in a sperm bank
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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri May 06, 2022 5:52 pm

Stranger Mouse wrote:
Fri May 06, 2022 4:47 pm
At this rate they’re going to make w.nking a criminal offence unless it’s in a sperm bank
No, that would affect men.
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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by Sciolus » Fri May 06, 2022 6:32 pm

LydiaGwilt wrote:
Fri May 06, 2022 2:42 pm
I that happens, could you put in a plea of self-defence? It seems reasonable - as I understand it an ectopic pregnancy will kill under almost all circumstances. Or would a self-defence plea only work in the US if guns are involved?
Since no-one else can be arsed to actually link to the bill, I will. AFAICS, the existing defences for homicide will continue to apply, with what seems to be a technical amendment (I'm too tired to wade through all the negatives to see if it's actually significant).

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by Millennie Al » Mon May 09, 2022 10:22 pm

gosling wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 9:22 pm
Woodchopper wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 12:30 pm
I think that the UK and the Netherlands are the only European states that allow abortion on demand or for broad reasons up to 24 weeks. As far as I know ten to twelve weeks is the most common limit.
The UK does not have "abortion on demand".
If the UK does not have abortion on demand, there must be women who are denied their request for one. How many are there?

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by Millennie Al » Mon May 09, 2022 10:35 pm

Bewildered wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 5:37 pm
1) if you think court packing opens Pandora’s box, how do you see it escalating? Are there any examples of this box being opened and things going crazy ? I am trying to imagine the outcome, the idea is any time one party has the presidency and both houses they would pack the court, but can it really grow indefinitely?
It starts with each side adding more and more judges until one side declares that it has gone beyond anything reasonably intended by the constitution and they then try other means. Maybe ignoring judgements passed by justices that they say are invalid. But it would end the same way it did last time ~150 years ago - in civil war. That time was over slavery, but I expect something similar would happen. That would be the end of the USA as we know it - even if it survives as a country, it nowadays relies on intellectual products (Apple, Amazon, Google) which cannot be captured in war. Big companies would switch to another country and smaller ones would just go out of business.
2j if you won’t do it, might it be wise to actually try to pass legislation to stop it being done in future?
Any legislation which can be passed can be undone by the other side when they get into power.

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by dyqik » Mon May 09, 2022 10:42 pm

Millennie Al wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 10:22 pm
gosling wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 9:22 pm
Woodchopper wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 12:30 pm
I think that the UK and the Netherlands are the only European states that allow abortion on demand or for broad reasons up to 24 weeks. As far as I know ten to twelve weeks is the most common limit.
The UK does not have "abortion on demand".
If the UK does not have abortion on demand, there must be women who are denied their request for one. How many are there?
The existence of, or even wide-spread availability of, doctors that will support a request for an abortion doesn't mean that there is a right to an abortion on demand. It's a fudge, not a sound legal right.

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by Millennie Al » Mon May 09, 2022 10:49 pm

dyqik wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 10:42 pm
The existence of, or even wide-spread availability of, doctors that will support a request for an abortion doesn't mean that there is a right to an abortion on demand. It's a fudge, not a sound legal right.
A de facto right is far superior to a de jure one. The UK has abortion on demand even if it doesn't have a right to abortion on demand.

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by dyqik » Mon May 09, 2022 11:37 pm

Millennie Al wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 10:49 pm
dyqik wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 10:42 pm
The existence of, or even wide-spread availability of, doctors that will support a request for an abortion doesn't mean that there is a right to an abortion on demand. It's a fudge, not a sound legal right.
A de facto right is far superior to a de jure one. The UK has abortion on demand even if it doesn't have a right to abortion on demand.
How on earth is a "de facto right" that can be denied with no recourse to the law better than one that you can appeal to the law for if denied?

There's no such thing as a "de facto right". There are only real rights enshrined in constitutions that require supermajorities to overturn, pseudo-rights enshrined in laws that can be overturned with bare majorities, and things that you get away with most of the time.

The UK only has the latter two - the UK constitution does not permit the first option.

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by gosling » Mon May 09, 2022 11:45 pm

A quick Google found these two articles in answer to your question...

BPAS article about women with health issues unable to get an appointment before the 24 week limit:
https://www.bpas.org/about-our-charity/ ... ir-health/

Women in Northern Ireland still denied easy access to abortions:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... galisation

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by monkey » Tue May 10, 2022 1:15 am

dyqik wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 11:37 pm
Millennie Al wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 10:49 pm
dyqik wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 10:42 pm
The existence of, or even wide-spread availability of, doctors that will support a request for an abortion doesn't mean that there is a right to an abortion on demand. It's a fudge, not a sound legal right.
A de facto right is far superior to a de jure one. The UK has abortion on demand even if it doesn't have a right to abortion on demand.
How on earth is a "de facto right" that can be denied with no recourse to the law better than one that you can appeal to the law for if denied?
Not arguing with you, but I'd like to make a point.

The nearest abortion clinic to me is a 1.5 hour drive away*. Having the right is only half the story.

*Currently, it seems likely that it'll get further away soon.

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Tue May 10, 2022 4:15 am

Just to check, which region of the UK are you in?
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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by monkey » Tue May 10, 2022 5:35 am

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 4:15 am
Just to check, which region of the UK are you in?
One of the bits that got all independency in the olden days.

My point was that abortion might be a right, but there's much that can be done to hamper access to what is essentially healthcare. I wasn't making an anywhere specific point, but using the situation where I am as an example.

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by dyqik » Tue May 10, 2022 11:47 am

monkey wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 1:15 am
dyqik wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 11:37 pm
Millennie Al wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 10:49 pm


A de facto right is far superior to a de jure one. The UK has abortion on demand even if it doesn't have a right to abortion on demand.
How on earth is a "de facto right" that can be denied with no recourse to the law better than one that you can appeal to the law for if denied?
Not arguing with you, but I'd like to make a point.

The nearest abortion clinic to me is a 1.5 hour drive away*. Having the right is only half the story.

*Currently, it seems likely that it'll get further away soon.
Access to something is not the same thing as a right to something, no.

But if the right to an abortion had been properly protected in the past, along with the right to healthcare, then that wouldn't be an issue.

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by IvanV » Tue May 10, 2022 1:28 pm

monkey wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 5:35 am
El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 4:15 am
Just to check, which region of the UK are you in?
One of the bits that got all independency in the olden days.

My point was that abortion might be a right, but there's much that can be done to hamper access to what is essentially healthcare. I wasn't making an anywhere specific point, but using the situation where I am as an example.
If you are in Northern Ireland, well that's due to the regional government being all pissy about being made to do what it didn't want to do, and showing very bad faith about actually doing it. And a fair point, but rather specific to Northern Ireland.

It might be quite an interesting example if you live somewhere in Great Britain where you get nearly all health services locally, but not this one, for some reasons that might be worth exploring.

But it's not much of an example if you live in some remoter corner of the country where you'd not get, say, oncology, or Marks and Spencers, without going 1.5 hrs away. I had a friend, recently deceased, who lived near Thurso for many years. He was inclined to use the example of the distance to his nearest M&S when demonstrating the limitations of what was available "locally," ie, anywhere north of the Great Glen and not in the immediate vicinity of Inverness.

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by monkey » Tue May 10, 2022 1:45 pm

IvanV wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 1:28 pm
monkey wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 5:35 am
El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 4:15 am
Just to check, which region of the UK are you in?
One of the bits that got all independency in the olden days.

My point was that abortion might be a right, but there's much that can be done to hamper access to what is essentially healthcare. I wasn't making an anywhere specific point, but using the situation where I am as an example.
If you are in Northern Ireland, well that's due to the regional government being all pissy about being made to do what it didn't want to do, and showing very bad faith about actually doing it. And a fair point, but rather specific to Northern Ireland.

It might be quite an interesting example if you live somewhere in Great Britain where you get nearly all health services locally, but not this one, for some reasons that might be worth exploring.

But it's not much of an example if you live in some remoter corner of the country where you'd not get, say, oncology, or Marks and Spencers, without going 1.5 hrs away. I had a friend, recently deceased, who lived near Thurso for many years. He was inclined to use the example of the distance to his nearest M&S when demonstrating the limitations of what was available "locally," ie, anywhere north of the Great Glen and not in the immediate vicinity of Inverness.
I live in the biggest city* of my USian state. General healthcare is very accessible**, there are several hospitals, plenty of doctors, and whatnot. It's a pretty good example of having a right, but not access. And as Dyqik pointed out, it's because the right was undermined without it actually being taken away - hence having the right is only part of the story.


*depends how you count it

**Provided you can afford it or have the right insurance, because USA.

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by IvanV » Tue May 10, 2022 2:35 pm

monkey wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 1:45 pm
IvanV wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 1:28 pm
monkey wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 5:35 am
My point was that abortion might be a right, but there's much that can be done to hamper access to what is essentially healthcare. I wasn't making an anywhere specific point, but using the situation where I am as an example.
If you are in Northern Ireland, well that's due to the regional government being all pissy about being made to do what it didn't want to do, and showing very bad faith about actually doing it. And a fair point, but rather specific to Northern Ireland.
I live in the biggest city* of my USian state. General healthcare is very accessible**, there are several hospitals, plenty of doctors, and whatnot. It's a pretty good example of having a right, but not access. And as Dyqik pointed out, it's because the right was undermined without it actually being taken away - hence having the right is only part of the story.
Makes much more sense to understand that.

The recent situation in Northern Ireland bears some similarity to what has been going on in many US conservative states since RvW. In each case, a higher jurisdiction of the same country made them do what they, as the government of that state, wouldn't have done without that enforcement. And since they hate that, they do it in bad faith. And probably the hate from that imposition has tended to enhance their loyalty to that view.

The world will be a better place when individual US states get around to deciding for themselves to offer abortion. So that it is permitted in good faith rather than bad faith. And whilst it will be slow, as someone was saying above, that will gradually happen. And probably Texas will be an early adopter among the present hold-outs. But I guess it's still a generation away. But sadly in between there will be much unnecessary suffering.

When I see these US lawmakers happy to go public in saying that they will ban even abortion of ectopic pregnancies, and other utterly unreasonable inflexibility, then what it is about is wearing a badge of loyalty to a cause. Because holding loyal to these most unreasonable aspects of a belief system is what most strongly demonstrates your specifically loyalty to that cause, and separates you most cleanly and clearly from people who are not loyal to it, who would be appalled to have anything to do with that.

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by dyqik » Tue May 10, 2022 3:36 pm

monkey wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 1:45 pm
IvanV wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 1:28 pm
monkey wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 5:35 am


One of the bits that got all independency in the olden days.

My point was that abortion might be a right, but there's much that can be done to hamper access to what is essentially healthcare. I wasn't making an anywhere specific point, but using the situation where I am as an example.
If you are in Northern Ireland, well that's due to the regional government being all pissy about being made to do what it didn't want to do, and showing very bad faith about actually doing it. And a fair point, but rather specific to Northern Ireland.

It might be quite an interesting example if you live somewhere in Great Britain where you get nearly all health services locally, but not this one, for some reasons that might be worth exploring.

But it's not much of an example if you live in some remoter corner of the country where you'd not get, say, oncology, or Marks and Spencers, without going 1.5 hrs away. I had a friend, recently deceased, who lived near Thurso for many years. He was inclined to use the example of the distance to his nearest M&S when demonstrating the limitations of what was available "locally," ie, anywhere north of the Great Glen and not in the immediate vicinity of Inverness.
I live in the biggest city* of my USian state. General healthcare is very accessible**, there are several hospitals, plenty of doctors, and whatnot. It's a pretty good example of having a right, but not access. And as Dyqik pointed out, it's because the right was undermined without it actually being taken away - hence having the right is only part of the story.


*depends how you count it

**Provided you can afford it or have the right insurance, because USA.
A comparable/contrastable legal right that I've been told about is the Danish right to subsidized childcare for mothers. There I'm told there were legal cases that led to the government being order to provide childcare on a small island with only one or two eligible children. Obviously that sounds wasteful, but OTOH, there aren't many cases where that applies, and a few relatively expensive edge cases don't break the bank (see also, Royal Mail deliveries to remote locations).

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by Fishnut » Tue May 10, 2022 9:38 pm

On the British situation, it's worth noting that abortion is the only elective medical procedure that requires the sign-off of two doctors. All others only require one. The only other instance of adults requiring two doctors to provide approval is if you've been detained under the mental health act. Intentional or not, wanting an abortion is seen as equivalent to being mentally ill.
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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by Allo V Psycho » Wed May 11, 2022 10:13 am

Fishnut wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 9:38 pm
Intentional or not, wanting an abortion is seen as equivalent to being mentally ill.
That's one way of looking at it. Or one could say that being mentally ill is seen as being the equivalent of being pregnant. I don't think either of those is the case. Rather, I'd think that both sectioning and termination are significant healthcare interventions, neither of which is made on the basis of objective observations, and in which, therefore, two opinions are valuable before proceeding with a course of action.

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Wed May 11, 2022 10:25 am

Personally I reckon only one opinion is important before the decision to have an abortion, and it isn't that of a doctor.
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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by EACLucifer » Wed May 11, 2022 12:09 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 9:38 pm
On the British situation, it's worth noting that abortion is the only elective medical procedure that requires the sign-off of two doctors. All others only require one. The only other instance of adults requiring two doctors to provide approval is if you've been detained under the mental health act. Intentional or not, wanting an abortion is seen as equivalent to being mentally ill.
It's a good example of a fudge that was important at the time, as it made it easier to pass the Abortion Act against opposition, but subsequently imposes a needless burden.

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by Bewildered » Thu May 12, 2022 5:57 am

Millennie Al wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 10:35 pm
Bewildered wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 5:37 pm
1) if you think court packing opens Pandora’s box, how do you see it escalating? Are there any examples of this box being opened and things going crazy ? I am trying to imagine the outcome, the idea is any time one party has the presidency and both houses they would pack the court, but can it really grow indefinitely?
It starts with each side adding more and more judges until one side declares that it has gone beyond anything reasonably intended by the constitution and they then try other means. Maybe ignoring judgements passed by justices that they say are invalid. But it would end the same way it did last time ~150 years ago - in civil war. That time was over slavery, but I expect something similar would happen. That would be the end of the USA as we know it - even if it survives as a country, it nowadays relies on intellectual products (Apple, Amazon, Google) which cannot be captured in war. Big companies would switch to another country and smaller ones would just go out of business.
2j if you won’t do it, might it be wise to actually try to pass legislation to stop it being done in future?
Any legislation which can be passed can be undone by the other side when they get into power.
I was more thinking of passing an amendment to the constitution with republicans support. i.e. say that you will pack the court if they don’t support the amendment.

However I think I now know the answer to this. In current circumstances it would be a toothless threat because Sinema and the most important Joe in the Democratic Party would vote against packing anyway. Unless Biden could actually do it, using it as threat won’t work.

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Thu May 12, 2022 6:19 am

It wouldn't work even if he could. The republicans are insane.
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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by IvanV » Thu May 12, 2022 7:03 am

Bewildered wrote:
Thu May 12, 2022 5:57 am
I was more thinking of passing an amendment to the constitution with republicans support. i.e. say that you will pack the court if they don’t support the amendment.
Amendments to the constitution have to be ratified by 38 individual states, with a time limit on that. You might get away with some kind of a deal in the house and senate, but you'd never get the states to go along with that. Whilst quite a few amendments were made and ratified during the 20th century, the last to pass the house and senate, the 26th, was in 1971. There is also a 27th amendment, but that passed the house and senate in the 18th century, and was enabled to be ratified 200 years later as it was discovered that the usual time limit didn't apply.

The unratified Equal Rights Amendment, passed by the house and senate in 1971-72 got only 35 state ratifications within the 1979 time-limit. The 38th ratification was achieved only just recently, but by then some 30 years too late, and its late "ratification" by a few states were a gesture. The campaign against ratification at the time by what we would now call "tea party" republicans - especially coordinated Phyllis Schlafly - could be seen as the modern origin of the activist republican right, later renewed in the form of the "tea party".

Since then it has been recognised as basically impossible to get any amendment to the constitution that would have a sufficient grass roots opposition at state level. And that is why there has been none since.

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