Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

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Stranger Mouse
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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by Stranger Mouse » Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:49 am

I notice Thomas doesn’t mention Loving V Virginia presumably because he didn’t want to worry Ginny although if he has a mistress I suppose she should be worried.

If Loving goes will it act as an annulment and save rich white men with trophy wives divorce settlements?
I’ve decided I should be on the pardon list if that’s still in the works

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by jimbob » Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:41 am

headshot wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:03 pm
Remember when I said Biden should push to expand the Supreme Court and people said that would escalate the situation?

Still think Democrats shouldn’t escalate?
Yes, and I was tending to agree with you.

The GOP broke with convention by not approving Obama's nomination and somewhat like Putin keep breaking the norms and cry if there's any pushback
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by Woodchopper » Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:53 am

jimbob wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:41 am
headshot wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:03 pm
Remember when I said Biden should push to expand the Supreme Court and people said that would escalate the situation?

Still think Democrats shouldn’t escalate?
Yes, and I was tending to agree with you.

The GOP broke with convention by not approving Obama's nomination and somewhat like Putin keep breaking the norms and cry if there's any pushback
The biggest breaking of norms happened on January 6 2021, and in the aftermath in which the republican party didn't condemn and cast out everyone who was involved or supported the insurrection.

The Republicans know that a majority of the US electorate supports abortion rights and gun control. In normal times they wouldn't try to dismantle both because that would cost them support in the next election. But these aren't normal times and the Republicans don't care that their most high profile policies are unpopular. They don't care because they aren't planning on gaining power from free and fair elections. Instead, they are planning to take power through voter suppression, gerrymandering and other ways in which they can win elections that aren't free and fair.

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by jimbob » Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:46 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:53 am
jimbob wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:41 am
headshot wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:03 pm
Remember when I said Biden should push to expand the Supreme Court and people said that would escalate the situation?

Still think Democrats shouldn’t escalate?
Yes, and I was tending to agree with you.

The GOP broke with convention by not approving Obama's nomination and somewhat like Putin keep breaking the norms and cry if there's any pushback
The biggest breaking of norms happened on January 6 2021, and in the aftermath in which the republican party didn't condemn and cast out everyone who was involved or supported the insurrection.

The Republicans know that a majority of the US electorate supports abortion rights and gun control. In normal times they wouldn't try to dismantle both because that would cost them support in the next election. But these aren't normal times and the Republicans don't care that their most high profile policies are unpopular. They don't care because they aren't planning on gaining power from free and fair elections. Instead, they are planning to take power through voter suppression, gerrymandering and other ways in which they can win elections that aren't free and fair.

Slightly off topic.

The rules in the UK parliament that an MP cannot call another member a liar - I can see why the rule was instigated but the Speaker should then enforce honourable conduct so that it does
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by FlammableFlower » Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:01 pm

It presumes that the MP is a gentleman and would not lie...

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by Lew Dolby » Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:15 pm

Presumably, all those who claim a fetus is fully human from conception, also agreed that abortion can be claimed as self-defence.
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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by EACLucifer » Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:24 pm

Aside from the absolutely horrible impact on bodily autonomy and self-determination, this is also going to create terrifying chilling effects for healthcare access for pregnant people and women and trans men who could possibly be pregnant.

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by Stranger Mouse » Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:23 pm

EACLucifer wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:24 pm
Aside from the absolutely horrible impact on bodily autonomy and self-determination, this is also going to create terrifying chilling effects for healthcare access for pregnant people and women and trans men who could possibly be pregnant.
The more you think the more people you realise will be penalised by this. Anybody who is actually trying for a baby better hope they have no complications during the pregnancy or have a miscarriage.

Interesting article on Alito’s judgement and it’s use of Matthew Hale

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... isogynist/
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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by jimbob » Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:49 pm

Abortion in the case of ectopic pregnancy is one obvious one, which is obscene to even mention
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by nekomatic » Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:11 am

Move-a… side, and let the mango through… let the mango through

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by EACLucifer » Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:52 am

jimbob wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:49 pm
Abortion in the case of ectopic pregnancy is one obvious one, which is obscene to even mention
It is, but I'm not just thinking about lifesaving treatment like removing an ectopic pregnancy, I'm thinking things where there might be (or might be perceived to be by a dodgy court/prosecutor) a risk of miscarriage as a side effect of treatment utterly unconnected to pregnancy in people who are pregnant or even those who potentially could be.

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by Stranger Mouse » Sun Jun 26, 2022 5:17 pm

EACLucifer wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:24 pm
Aside from the absolutely horrible impact on bodily autonomy and self-determination, this is also going to create terrifying chilling effects for healthcare access for pregnant people and women and trans men who could possibly be pregnant.
Maybe there will be benefits too. ;-)

https://twitter.com/carlissc/status/112 ... OtlRHauJ_g
If a fetus is a person at 6 weeks pregnant, is that when the child support starts? Is that also when you can’t deport the mother because she’s carrying a US citizen? Can I insure a 6 week fetus and collect if I miscarry? Just figuring if we’re going here we should go all in.
I hope some interviewers use some of these in conversation with the Republican tw.ts
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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by EACLucifer » Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:17 pm

Stranger Mouse wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 5:17 pm
I hope some interviewers use some of these in conversation with the Republican tw.ts
It won't work. It's not a reasoned position, gotchas won't make them think and it won't make their supporters think. Until at least the seventies US Evangelicals were generally opposed to abortion bans, and generally considered them a Catholic position. Then southern Evangelicals realised they'd lost on the issue of segregation, and needed to pivot to a new issue to seek control of public life.

As for the Catholics, we know what they did in Ireland when they got their way - young women effectively enslaved and septic tanks full of dead babies. They don't care about the implications, not Evangelicals, not Catholics, not other religious fundamentalists seeking to exert power of other peoples' bodies and lives.

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by Millennie Al » Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:32 pm

Little waster wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:03 pm
Millennie Al wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:46 pm
Because if you choose the former, you have chosen to have the USA ruled at the whim of the nine judges.
Which differs from the status quo, how?
However bad a situation you find yourself in, you can always make it worse.

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by IvanV » Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:08 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:53 pm
I mean, is it actually surprising that the US Constitution - a document written hundreds of years ago by religious men - doesn't include a right to abortion? It seems entirely unsurprising that it wouldn't, without an amendment being passed.
The drafters of the constitution took a much more secularist approach to government than modern US practice, even if they were individually religious.

I can't imagine the founding fathers even thinking abortion was a relevant matter to include in a constitution. It was an issue far from political consciousness in those days. The idea of regulating it did not arise until the 19th century. The idea of having a right to it, I suspect, would not arise until modern medicine made it a (relatively) safe procedure.

Although it is often said that the founders of the US colonies, such as "Pilgrim Fathers", believed in "freedom of religion", what many of them really wanted was the freedom to found exclusive religious communities, where conformance to a uniform religion was imposed across that community. Many people in the US, 400 years later, continue to argue that imposition of religion is a practice consistent with freedom of religion. But they lost that battle in favour of the idea of freedom of religion meaning the inability of anyone to impose their religion on anyone else. That goes back to the early constitutions of the original states. This matter was therefore very much in the mind of founding fathers of the USA.
First Amendment wrote:Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
The religiosity of US law and practice is largely a 20th century phenomenon. "In God We Trust" was adopted as the US motto in 1956 to replace "E pluribus unum". It seems unlikely the founding fathers would have found this consistent with the First Amendment. It first appeared on a coin in 1864, since it had been civil war slogan to help morale. It didn't get printed on paper currency until 1957. But it has a very high approval rating in the present US population.

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by purplehaze » Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:20 am

Benjamin Franklin wrote a book on home remedies, one of which was procuring abortion. Abortion was seen as a part of life then.

https://www.npr.org/2022/05/18/10995429 ... 6321544296

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by EACLucifer » Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:50 am

IvanV wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:08 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:53 pm
I mean, is it actually surprising that the US Constitution - a document written hundreds of years ago by religious men - doesn't include a right to abortion? It seems entirely unsurprising that it wouldn't, without an amendment being passed.
The drafters of the constitution took a much more secularist approach to government than modern US practice, even if they were individually religious.

I can't imagine the founding fathers even thinking abortion was a relevant matter to include in a constitution. It was an issue far from political consciousness in those days. The idea of regulating it did not arise until the 19th century. The idea of having a right to it, I suspect, would not arise until modern medicine made it a (relatively) safe procedure.

Although it is often said that the founders of the US colonies, such as "Pilgrim Fathers", believed in "freedom of religion", what many of them really wanted was the freedom to found exclusive religious communities, where conformance to a uniform religion was imposed across that community.
To the point of actually hanging people from other sects, I would add.
First Amendment wrote:Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
The religiosity of US law and practice is largely a 20th century phenomenon. "In God We Trust" was adopted as the US motto in 1956 to replace "E pluribus unum". It seems unlikely the founding fathers would have found this consistent with the First Amendment. It first appeared on a coin in 1864, since it had been civil war slogan to help morale. It didn't get printed on paper currency until 1957. But it has a very high approval rating in the present US population.
Interestingly, though, attendance at churches has plummetted in the last couple of decades. This is, in many ways, the backlash of an old, fading world against a newer, freer one.

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:54 am

Unfortunately, though, it's not fading very quickly, and that old, fading world is raging rather strongly at the dying of the light. It'll be decades before anything happens with this.

Presumably at some point, there'll have to be a constitutional amendment protecting various rights? Like I say, decades to achieve, but is there any other way to stop this c.ntery?
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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by purplehaze » Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:29 am

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:54 am
Unfortunately, though, it's not fading very quickly, and that old, fading world is raging rather strongly at the dying of the light. It'll be decades before anything happens with this.

Presumably at some point, there'll have to be a constitutional amendment protecting various rights? Like I say, decades to achieve, but is there any other way to stop this c.ntery?
Decriminalise abortion. It's the only medical procedure that can be considered a crime if the rules are not conformed to. New Zealand has decriminalised abortion. It's now, rightly, considered a health issue.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-51955148

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:40 am

Surely the Democrats have tried at various points to decriminalize abortion at a federal level? It's been a hot-button issue for ages, one that they campaign on, and the flimsiness of Roe vs. Wade must have been obvious.

In the 16 years of Clinton and Obama there must have been various proposals kicking around?
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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:54 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:40 am
Surely the Democrats have tried at various points to decriminalize abortion at a federal level? It's been a hot-button issue for ages, one that they campaign on, and the flimsiness of Roe vs. Wade must have been obvious.

In the 16 years of Clinton and Obama there must have been various proposals kicking around?
Obama said that that would be one of the first things he would do as president.

It was not one of the things he did at any point as president.
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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by insignificant » Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:54 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:40 am
Surely the Democrats have tried at various points to decriminalize abortion at a federal level? It's been a hot-button issue for ages, one that they campaign on, and the flimsiness of Roe vs. Wade must have been obvious.

In the 16 years of Clinton and Obama there must have been various proposals kicking around?
Freedom of Choice Act

also, a lot of the opposition to the Equal Rights Amendment came from anti-abortionists - (wikipedia) link

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by dyqik » Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:35 pm

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:54 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:40 am
Surely the Democrats have tried at various points to decriminalize abortion at a federal level? It's been a hot-button issue for ages, one that they campaign on, and the flimsiness of Roe vs. Wade must have been obvious.

In the 16 years of Clinton and Obama there must have been various proposals kicking around?
Obama said that that would be one of the first things he would do as president.

It was not one of the things he did at any point as president.
TBF, he had about 6 months with a filibuster proof majority in the Senate (from the time Al Frankin was finally seated after a lengthy appeal process following his election until the mid-term elections), and that was spent with getting the Affordable Care Act passed - which is also critical for reproductive freedom, contraception and abortion care, as it's crucial to funding care nationwide.

There were still a lot of anti-abortion Ds at that point, and it would have been even harder to pass that than the ACA. There are now fewer anti-abortion Ds, but there are still some.

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by tom p » Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:43 pm

dyqik wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:35 pm
El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:54 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:40 am
Surely the Democrats have tried at various points to decriminalize abortion at a federal level? It's been a hot-button issue for ages, one that they campaign on, and the flimsiness of Roe vs. Wade must have been obvious.

In the 16 years of Clinton and Obama there must have been various proposals kicking around?
Obama said that that would be one of the first things he would do as president.

It was not one of the things he did at any point as president.
TBF, he had about 6 months with a filibuster proof majority in the Senate (from the time Al Frankin was finally seated after a lengthy appeal process following his election until the mid-term elections), and that was spent with getting the Affordable Care Act passed - which is also critical for reproductive freedom, contraception and abortion care, as it's crucial to funding care nationwide.

There were still a lot of anti-abortion Ds at that point, and it would have been even harder to pass that than the ACA. There are now fewer anti-abortion Ds, but there are still some.
He also said he'd close guantanamo, but failed to do even that.
He said a lot of things & was deeply disappointing. If it weren't for his skin tone, he'd be remembered as a bit of a nothingy president who talked a moderately good game, and failed to live up to even that.

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by Tessa K » Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:54 pm

A lot of people on social media and elsewhere are saying men should have vasectomies.

This is a good thread on why that's a dumb idea

https://twitter.com/sniphist/status/154 ... y3dEw&s=19

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