Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

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JQH
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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by JQH » Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:07 pm

Tessa K wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:54 pm
A lot of people on social media and elsewhere are saying men should have vasectomies.

This is a good thread on why that's a dumb idea

https://twitter.com/sniphist/status/154 ... y3dEw&s=19
TBH I thought the "men should have vasectomies" argument was intended to make men think how they would feel about the state interfering with their bodily autonomy.
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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by Tessa K » Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:11 pm

JQH wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:07 pm
Tessa K wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:54 pm
A lot of people on social media and elsewhere are saying men should have vasectomies.

This is a good thread on why that's a dumb idea

https://twitter.com/sniphist/status/154 ... y3dEw&s=19
TBH I thought the "men should have vasectomies" argument was intended to make men think how they would feel about the state interfering with their bodily autonomy.
That's a generous interpretation. It's gone well beyond that in many instances. I know there's a lot of anger now and that can lead to knee jerk responses but this one doesn't help.

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by Stranger Mouse » Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:05 pm

I’ve decided I should be on the pardon list if that’s still in the works

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by Stranger Mouse » Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:38 am

Here is something I hadn’t considered. If having or aiding an abortion is a felony then felony voting laws allows partial roll back of the 19th Amendment (in effect anyway)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_di ... ted_States
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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by bagpuss » Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:34 am

Question for anyone more knowledgeable about US and State laws than I (which is probably nearly everyone):

Is it possible for a state (State A) to legislate against something happening in another state (State B), by a resident of State B? Or if a resident of State B does something that is a crime in State A while still living, and remaining, in State B, can they be prosecuted by State A? Is there such a thing as extradition between states?

I'm thinking, for example, of a situation where a resident of State B - let's call them Belinda - purchases drugs that induce abortion, and sends them to a resident of State A - let's call them Angela.

Obviously, if abortion is illegal in State A, then Angela would be committing a crime by taking them, unless she travels to a more enlightened state to do so, but would Belinda have committed a crime if her actions (buying and providing the drugs to another person) are entirely legal in her state? And even if State A has written their legislation in such a way that Belinda has committed a crime in State A despite her never setting foot in State A, can they do anything about it if Belinda never travels to State A?

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by Stranger Mouse » Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:22 am

bagpuss wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:34 am
Question for anyone more knowledgeable about US and State laws than I (which is probably nearly everyone):

Is it possible for a state (State A) to legislate against something happening in another state (State B), by a resident of State B? Or if a resident of State B does something that is a crime in State A while still living, and remaining, in State B, can they be prosecuted by State A? Is there such a thing as extradition between states?

I'm thinking, for example, of a situation where a resident of State B - let's call them Belinda - purchases drugs that induce abortion, and sends them to a resident of State A - let's call them Angela.

Obviously, if abortion is illegal in State A, then Angela would be committing a crime by taking them, unless she travels to a more enlightened state to do so, but would Belinda have committed a crime if her actions (buying and providing the drugs to another person) are entirely legal in her state? And even if State A has written their legislation in such a way that Belinda has committed a crime in State A despite her never setting foot in State A, can they do anything about it if Belinda never travels to State A?
I don’t know much more than you (if anything) but mailing stuff across state lines in that way can be problematic but some people are coming up with creative solutions.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/27/women-i ... rseas.html

This is only the beginning. Some of the biggest supporters of states’ rights have been the ones who have actually taken action against other states when it suited them. For instance during elections.

https://www.texastribune.org/2020/12/11 ... n-results/

ETA a little more here

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/24/us/a ... -bans.html
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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by monkey » Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:47 pm

bagpuss wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:34 am
Question for anyone more knowledgeable about US and State laws than I (which is probably nearly everyone):

Is it possible for a state (State A) to legislate against something happening in another state (State B), by a resident of State B? Or if a resident of State B does something that is a crime in State A while still living, and remaining, in State B, can they be prosecuted by State A? Is there such a thing as extradition between states?

I'm thinking, for example, of a situation where a resident of State B - let's call them Belinda - purchases drugs that induce abortion, and sends them to a resident of State A - let's call them Angela.

Obviously, if abortion is illegal in State A, then Angela would be committing a crime by taking them, unless she travels to a more enlightened state to do so, but would Belinda have committed a crime if her actions (buying and providing the drugs to another person) are entirely legal in her state? And even if State A has written their legislation in such a way that Belinda has committed a crime in State A despite her never setting foot in State A, can they do anything about it if Belinda never travels to State A?
I don't think states can make stuff that happens out of State illegal, but I know people want to try and make this happen for abortion. Stuff that happens between states is normally Federal jurisdiction. e.g. if you send drugs into a state, you are not charged by that state, but the Feds*. There might be laws about sending prescription drugs to someone without a prescription that could be applied, but I am not sure about that and the decision to charge would be made by the relevant federal agency, not the state. A Republican congress and Presidency could change federal law. And the current SCOTUS would back them up, for abortion anyway.

There is extradition between states, and that's managed by federal people.

Also, it should be noted that some (maybe most) of the States that are making/have made abortion illegal are not punishing the parent, only the "provider" (my state is one), so Angela would not get punished for taking the abortifacient here (for now, at least). I think this makes them think they are being humane.


*A friend of mine was pulled over driving back from New Orleans in Mississippi. The cops found his weed. Because he told the cops he had crossed a state line, they passed his case to the feds. They dropped the charge because it was a piddly amount, but it could have got bad for him.

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by Woodchopper » Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:52 pm

I agree, as they are prescription medicines I assume that interstate trade in abortifacients are covered by federal regulations.

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by monkey » Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:00 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:52 pm
I agree, as they are prescription medicines I assume that interstate trade in abortifacients are covered by federal regulations.
There's also laws about providing treatment things across state lines, so a doctor can only prescribe stuff to someone in the same state, in case anyone was thinking about that.

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by bolo » Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:31 pm

I believe that answers to some of these questions are not yet clear.

This piece by a colleague of mine summarizes the legal situation, with lots of links for further reference:
https://crsreports.congress.gov/product ... B/LSB10768

Please note that the piece is intentionally neutral with regard to both the policy questions and the legal merits, because that's his job.

IANAL but he is.

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by monkey » Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:57 pm

If anyone is interested* in how it might be done, I have just learnt about PlanC. It is a website that helps people get access to abortion medication - https://www.plancpills.org/.

It has options and guides with a state-by-state basis, based on laws as they currently stand. There's also information about how the medication works and how to take it.

In my state, the options they suggest would be -

1. Aid Access - based in the Netherlands, they will give you an online consultation, and ship you the pills from India, then give you a follow up.

2. Various online pharmacies, shipped from abroad, but no consultation.

3. Using a neighbouring state's telehealth services and getting the pills delivered to a PO box, a friends house, or use a mail forwarding service.

There is an obvious worry about the safety of these methods. Self administering is not going to be as safe as going to a doctor, and Scammers will scam, because they're c.nts. But it is denying access to healthcare and forcing people to take things into their own hands that is causing this issue. There still may be legal issues, depending on where you are.

(IAMNAD or an L)


*I am not going to ask why you might be interested, and neither should anyone else.

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by bagpuss » Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:40 pm

Thank you all. I haven't read all the links yet but I will, and I appreciate your very informative responses.

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by EACLucifer » Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:25 pm

This is the kind of thing I was worrying about.

Just a tweet, but someone posting this.
I take methotrexate to control my Rhumatoid. I was told today I could not be prescribed it any longer as I am viably fertile and it is a medication that can be used for abortion.
The anti-choice, anti-bodily autonomy of this is vile, but so is the chilling effect on healthcare access for women and trans men.

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by Stranger Mouse » Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:21 pm

I’ve decided I should be on the pardon list if that’s still in the works

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by EACLucifer » Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:19 pm

Stranger Mouse wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:21 pm
As expected problems with Plan B https://twitter.com/steve_vladeck/statu ... UTer9EJ7Mg
Given how some of the laws coming into force now are written, IUDs will be affected too - and not just emergency ones.

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by kerrya1 » Fri Jul 01, 2022 10:15 am

EACLucifer wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:25 pm
This is the kind of thing I was worrying about.

Just a tweet, but someone posting this.
I take methotrexate to control my Rhumatoid. I was told today I could not be prescribed it any longer as I am viably fertile and it is a medication that can be used for abortion.
The anti-choice, anti-bodily autonomy of this is vile, but so is the chilling effect on healthcare access for women and trans men.
I'm not surprised this is happening, but the speed of it is horrifying

Alabama cites abortion ruling in transgender medication case

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by EACLucifer » Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:18 am

kerrya1 wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 10:15 am
EACLucifer wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:25 pm
This is the kind of thing I was worrying about.

Just a tweet, but someone posting this.
I take methotrexate to control my Rhumatoid. I was told today I could not be prescribed it any longer as I am viably fertile and it is a medication that can be used for abortion.
The anti-choice, anti-bodily autonomy of this is vile, but so is the chilling effect on healthcare access for women and trans men.
I'm not surprised this is happening, but the speed of it is horrifying

Alabama cites abortion ruling in transgender medication case
The speed of it is because the f.ckers planned in advance for it.

And cases like this are why it's important to remember that this affects trans men and nonbinary/GNC AFAB people.

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by Little waster » Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:23 am

EACLucifer wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:18 am

The speed of it is because the f.ckers planned in advance for it.
Which makes it all the more depressing that, once again, the Democrats appear asleep at the wheel and are now frantically playing catch-up.

More contingencies should have been put in place as soon as Kavanaugh, never mind Barrett, was sleazed into place.
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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by Stranger Mouse » Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:18 am

Horrible that the theoretical (what about cases of rape and incest) has now moved to current reality (10 year old’s family unable to obtain an abortion for her)

Kristi Noem avoids the question a lot but seems all in https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/03/politics ... index.html
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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by Grumble » Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:48 am

Stranger Mouse wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:18 am
Horrible that the theoretical (what about cases of rape and incest) has now moved to current reality (10 year old’s family unable to obtain an abortion for her)

Kristi Noem avoids the question a lot but seems all in https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/03/politics ... index.html
It’s all too common to think of these examples as hypothetical edge cases. They happen all the time.
A bit churlish

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by Woodchopper » Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:57 am

Little waster wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:23 am
EACLucifer wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:18 am

The speed of it is because the f.ckers planned in advance for it.
Which makes it all the more depressing that, once again, the Democrats appear asleep at the wheel and are now frantically playing catch-up.

More contingencies should have been put in place as soon as Kavanaugh, never mind Barrett, was sleazed into place.
What could they have done?

These states have republican controlled legislatures. After Kavanaugh was appointed there hasn’t been a democrat controlled White House combined with a majority in Congress willing to pass federal legislation on abortion rights.

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by EACLucifer » Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:10 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:57 am
Little waster wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:23 am
EACLucifer wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:18 am

The speed of it is because the f.ckers planned in advance for it.
Which makes it all the more depressing that, once again, the Democrats appear asleep at the wheel and are now frantically playing catch-up.

More contingencies should have been put in place as soon as Kavanaugh, never mind Barrett, was sleazed into place.
What could they have done?

These states have republican controlled legislatures. After Kavanaugh was appointed there hasn’t been a democrat controlled White House combined with a majority in Congress willing to pass federal legislation on abortion rights.
The time for action was in 2016, which is why it is so frustrating to see Bernie die-hards* who promoted voting third party in that vital election now yelling at the Democrats for not doing things they don't have the power to do.

*This is referring to people not on this forum, not an attack on Little Waster.

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by Stranger Mouse » Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:34 am

EACLucifer wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:10 am
Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:57 am
Little waster wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:23 am


Which makes it all the more depressing that, once again, the Democrats appear asleep at the wheel and are now frantically playing catch-up.

More contingencies should have been put in place as soon as Kavanaugh, never mind Barrett, was sleazed into place.
What could they have done?

These states have republican controlled legislatures. After Kavanaugh was appointed there hasn’t been a democrat controlled White House combined with a majority in Congress willing to pass federal legislation on abortion rights.
The time for action was in 2016, which is why it is so frustrating to see Bernie die-hards* who promoted voting third party in that vital election now yelling at the Democrats for not doing things they don't have the power to do.

*This is referring to people not on this forum, not an attack on Little Waster.
Agreed. I’m getting a little tired of criticism of Biden and Democrats in general for not getting stuff done when they are dealing with a substantial obstructionist Mitch McConnell Republican Party - Manchin and Sinema are f.cking useless but the reason they are allowed to be so powerful is the Republicans have cemented their position up and down ballot by voting and voting and voting for fifty f.cking years win or lose whereas some people who vote Democrat give up as soon as they don’t get what they want straight away.

On the other hand I can’t understand the game plan with what Biden is doing on this lifetime appointment for an anti abortion judge. https://www.businessinsider.com/biden-m ... ade-2022-7
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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by tom p » Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:59 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:57 am
Little waster wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:23 am
EACLucifer wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:18 am

The speed of it is because the f.ckers planned in advance for it.
Which makes it all the more depressing that, once again, the Democrats appear asleep at the wheel and are now frantically playing catch-up.

More contingencies should have been put in place as soon as Kavanaugh, never mind Barrett, was sleazed into place.
What could they have done?

These states have republican controlled legislatures. After Kavanaugh was appointed there hasn’t been a democrat controlled White House combined with a majority in Congress willing to pass federal legislation on abortion rights.
They could have played the republicans at their own game and packed the court.

As soon as Moscow Mitch refused to hear Obama's nomination for a supreme court justice (back in early 2016, if memory serves) on the b.llsh.t premise that he was in his final year of his 2nd term, the Democrats should have made it clear that the second they had control of the levers of power, they would not only restore the balance of the court to where it would have been, but would actually ensure a majority of democratic justices.

Biden had the chance to do just that.

Sinema and Manchin can be bought for a couple of million dollars each to ensure they would play ball. There's a majority of yanks support abortion rights. I bet they could easily raise fund which is ostensibly to lobby politicians, but really to bribe those two c.nts.
Failing that, if they were to obstruct such confirmations, then the democrats could ensure the rules governing their selection are such that they arse totally screwed and aren't the democratic nominees for their seats next time. If a political party can't f.ck over one of their own, then it's not worth a damn,

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Re: Roe v Wade likely to be overturned

Post by Little waster » Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:20 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:57 am
Little waster wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:23 am
EACLucifer wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:18 am

The speed of it is because the f.ckers planned in advance for it.
Which makes it all the more depressing that, once again, the Democrats appear asleep at the wheel and are now frantically playing catch-up.

More contingencies should have been put in place as soon as Kavanaugh, never mind Barrett, was sleazed into place.
What could they have done?

These states have republican controlled legislatures. After Kavanaugh was appointed there hasn’t been a democrat controlled White House combined with a majority in Congress willing to pass federal legislation on abortion rights.
The Democrats response didn't just have to be at the federal level.

Dobbs v Jackson Women's Health Organization was not unexpected. Roe v Wade was always on shaky legal ground from its inception and a challenge like this was a matter of When not If. It seemed on the cards once the Repugs started playing silly buggers with Garland in 2016 and became ever more likely with, in succession, Trump's inauguration then the sequential appointments of Gorsuch, Kavanaugh and Barrett. Each one of those events was a harbringer of where we are today. The pretext SCOTUS have went with of "returning the decision to the state level" was always the most likely outcome and the Republican states were prepared with a range of trigger laws in place for the very moment it happened.

I'll quote from an article in the BMJ
Since the decision was released, eight states—Alabama, Arkansas, Louisiana, Kentucky, Missouri, Oklahoma, South Dakota, and Utah—have implemented laws and trigger bans that make abortion illegal, with few exceptions. Of those states, only Utah has an exception for cases of rape and incest. In three other states—Arizona, West Virginia, and Wisconsin—confusion about the enforceability of pre-Roe bans has led all abortions to cease. While judges in Louisiana, Texas, and Utah temporarily blocked their bans, allowing some abortions to resume, in nine states abortions have ceased completely.123 More bans will soon follow. Trigger bans (laws set to take effect if Roe were overruled) in Texas, Tennessee, Mississippi, Idaho, North Dakota, and Wyoming will take effect in the coming weeks, eliminating abortion access in those states as well.

Georgia is in the process of overturning injunctions against fetal heartbeat bills, and will join Tennessee, Ohio, and South Carolina in eliminating abortions after six weeks of pregnancy, before most people know they are pregnant. Several more state governments are working to ban or severely restrict access to abortion.

Eighteen states have laws in place that open the door to the prosecution of pregnant women and providers who attempt abortions under a range of provisions including homicide, feticide, assault, and child abuse.4 Thirteen states have introduced or passed legislation allowing private citizens to sue people who aid or abet abortion for financial renumeration.5 As a result, the Supreme Court has unleashed large scale terror on the provision of reproductive healthcare.
That specifically names:-

Alabama
Arkansas
Georgia
Louisiana
Kentucky
Missouri
Oklahoma
Ohio
South Carolina
South Dakota
Texas
Utah

So that's 12 states which all had "one in the barrel" ready the exact moment Roe vs Wade was overturned, with 18 in total (inclusive or exclusive of that 12) with laws in place to prosecute pregnant women who attempt abortions and "several more" working on such measures.

So the question is where is the corresponding list of Blue or Purple states that had abortion-affirming legislation similarly primed to go?

A bit of research shows "proposals by California, Oregon, and Washington state have included expanding abortion access by eliminating co-pays for abortion services, funding travel costs for those seeking abortion from states that ban abortion, and enshrining the right to an abortion in state constitutions" and Vermont has a referendum in the works scheduled for November. And that's it!

All the other supposedly pro-choice states are going to have to start this process from scratch with all the obstacles that entails; filibusters, elections, gubernatorial vetos, legal challenges, scheduling, not to mention actually winning the final vote or referendum. That is all going to take time and none of it is guaranteed. Meanwhile real lives are being affected.

Depending on how you count them in 2022 there are 14-17 Democrat states with perhaps another dozen purple states and even in some of the light-Red states there are pro-choice majorities. That by May 2022 only three of them appeared to have any Plan B for the overturn of Roe v Wade, despites all the warnings, is indicative of a party, and a movement, that was asleep at the wheel. In contrast nearly 20 Red states hit the road running.

So once again it is catch-up time for the progressives. Yet it was all so predictable.
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