The Invasion of Palestine

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Bird on a Fire
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Re: The Invasion of Palestine

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sat May 14, 2022 9:10 am

EACLucifer wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 9:04 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 8:44 am
Invading armies don't generally get invited to participate in investigations, no. I'm sure Ukraine isn't inviting Russia to join investigations of civilian casualties either.

If you don't want Palestinians to investigate shootings that happened near where you were shooting, simply avoid going to Palestine shooting people.
You have a special way of taking a complicated situation and distilling it into a stupid piece of simplistic rhetoric that doesn't actually mean very much, and reflects your preconceptions more than it does any knowledge of what's actually going on in the region. Bonus points for an imbelcilic comparison which shows you probably don't understand much about the Russian invasion of Ukraine, either.

The two groups that could have fired the shot that killed her are;

The IDF
Palestinian Militants tolerated by the PA - in this case Islamic Jihad and Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade.

Neither should be the sole investigator.
Of course not. The PA wants an independent investigation at the ICC, which seems much more sensible. The International Federation of Journalists had already referred Israel there. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... der-attack

Investigating oneself is never the answer. Hopefully Israel will swiftly agree to a transparent, independent investigation like the Palestinians are asking for.
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EACLucifer
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Re: The Invasion of Palestine

Post by EACLucifer » Sat May 14, 2022 9:37 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 9:06 am
As for attacking grieving family members at a funeral, even the US has condemned it. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... el-blinken
To be clear, whatever lead to it, it's a horrible situation for a family that's already gone through far too much in the last few days.



When I say I want to establish a clear timeline, there's a reason, and that's because the following scenarios look the same from a snapshot taken in the middle, but are very different in who is to blame;

Police charge funeral, people throw things in response.
Rioters throw projectiles from funeral procession, police move in against them.

And the truth could also be somewhere between the two scenarios.

The violence in the footage is not one way. Views that are less zoomed in than the short clip that's circulating widely also show projectiles being thrown by the crowd, with some of them appearing to hide behind the coffin during/after doing so.

The US don't necessarily have much more information on this. It's always important to look at the wider picture, and sometimes that means waiting and seeing. The Israeli Police account is that rioters blocked the hearse and wanted to parade the coffin on their shoulders, and report that objects were thrown at them before the funeral began. Their account is obviously going to be biased. So are the accounts from the other side of things.

There's also reports that youths taking part in the funeral procession attacked a Haredi man, in case you were thinking that it would be fine to just let an angry crowd of approximately ten thousand do whatever they wanted.

And in the time it's taken me to do even a tiny bit of fact checking - just checking what claims even are - you've already regurgitated another narrative-laden Grauniad article. Take a moment to read around different sources, see what the different claims are. Even just check how things look when filmed from different angles, or with different zoom levels.

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Bird on a Fire
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Re: The Invasion of Palestine

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sat May 14, 2022 10:31 am

Here's the timeline from the BBC reporter who was there:
We were in the car park of St Joseph's hospital, where hundreds of Palestinian mourners had gathered ready for Shireen Abu Aqla's coffin to be carried out into a waiting hearse.

There was a shrine of written tributes, a floral crucifix (Shireen was a Palestinian Christian) and poignantly a press flak jacket among the flowers. Many were in tears. There was some chanting and Palestinian flags were being flown.

Suddenly the gates to the compound were closed and heavily armed Israeli border police, some on horseback, appeared on the other side of them. Given the circumstances it already felt confrontational.

The coffin was brought out of the building carried by a group of pallbearers. While the plan was for the procession to the church to use the hearse, the coffin was now being carried towards the closed gates.

What happened next was extraordinary. I was behind the packed crowd so I couldn't see the front point of contact, but the Israeli police suddenly pushed back the crowd, including the coffin and its carriers.

They fired stun grenades towards the mourners and the press and were storming into the compound. From my vantage point - not at the front of the crowd - I saw a couple of plastic bottles being thrown back, nothing more. People ran to take cover inside the hospital. I saw a woman with a young baby in a carrier sling distraught, almost being crushed in the panic.

The echo of stun grenades rang out in the hospital corridors and wards. I saw at least one man wounded.

This seemed to go on for around 10 minutes, as we sought a safe route back towards the car park. After we came out, the coffin left in the hearse through the gates. And now videos have emerged showing what happened while people were rushing inside - Israeli police beating and kicking the pallbearers, who were in retreat carrying Shireen Abu Aqla's coffin. At one stage it nearly slipped from their grasp, falling towards the ground.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-61437601

I've not read any accounts nor seen any footage suggesting that the funeral party started violence. Interested in any credible links to the contrary, because mainstream media is giving a very consistent version of events that's become increasingly distant from the Israeli forces' version of events as time goes by, e.g. the BBC was originally more equivocal about what happened. Every country that's made a statement will have been able to talk to their journalists and diplomatic staff who were there.

It sounds more like the Israeli forces were triggered by the display of Palestinian resistance and decided to crush it. They are reported as threatening to stop the funeral if the mourners didn't stop chanting and waving flags, which is what they then did.
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EACLucifer
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Re: The Invasion of Palestine

Post by EACLucifer » Sat May 14, 2022 11:25 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 10:31 am
Here's the timeline from the BBC reporter who was there:
We were in the car park of St Joseph's hospital, where hundreds of Palestinian mourners had gathered ready for Shireen Abu Aqla's coffin to be carried out into a waiting hearse.

There was a shrine of written tributes, a floral crucifix (Shireen was a Palestinian Christian) and poignantly a press flak jacket among the flowers. Many were in tears. There was some chanting and Palestinian flags were being flown.

Suddenly the gates to the compound were closed and heavily armed Israeli border police, some on horseback, appeared on the other side of them. Given the circumstances it already felt confrontational.

The coffin was brought out of the building carried by a group of pallbearers. While the plan was for the procession to the church to use the hearse, the coffin was now being carried towards the closed gates.

What happened next was extraordinary. I was behind the packed crowd so I couldn't see the front point of contact, but the Israeli police suddenly pushed back the crowd, including the coffin and its carriers.

They fired stun grenades towards the mourners and the press and were storming into the compound. From my vantage point - not at the front of the crowd - I saw a couple of plastic bottles being thrown back, nothing more. People ran to take cover inside the hospital. I saw a woman with a young baby in a carrier sling distraught, almost being crushed in the panic.

The echo of stun grenades rang out in the hospital corridors and wards. I saw at least one man wounded.

This seemed to go on for around 10 minutes, as we sought a safe route back towards the car park. After we came out, the coffin left in the hearse through the gates. And now videos have emerged showing what happened while people were rushing inside - Israeli police beating and kicking the pallbearers, who were in retreat carrying Shireen Abu Aqla's coffin. At one stage it nearly slipped from their grasp, falling towards the ground.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-61437601

I've not read any accounts nor seen any footage suggesting that the funeral party started violence. Interested in any credible links to the contrary, because mainstream media is giving a very consistent version of events that's become increasingly distant from the Israeli forces' version of events as time goes by, e.g. the BBC was originally more equivocal about what happened. Every country that's made a statement will have been able to talk to their journalists and diplomatic staff who were there.

It sounds more like the Israeli forces were triggered by the display of Palestinian resistance and decided to crush it. They are reported as threatening to stop the funeral if the mourners didn't stop chanting and waving flags, which is what they then did.
I'll get back to this in a day or two. Partly, it's because I want to wait for more sources (and some witnesses to events won't be online today), but mostly it's because I'm absolutely shattered.

However, that account appears to confirm one part of the Police's version of events - that the procession that was planned to use a hearse and security was in place accordingly, and that people carrying it on their shoulders was a change in the plans.

Regardless of how the violence started, it appears that the force the police used was excessive.

However, a large crowd of angry people marching through a mixed city is dangerous and at a minimum it looks like the procession deviated from agreed plans. From what I've seen, I don't think the response was proportionate, but I don't think there was no danger to respond to, either.

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Re: The Invasion of Palestine

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sat May 14, 2022 12:05 pm

I'd probably agree with that, yes. Cheers.
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EACLucifer
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Re: The Invasion of Palestine

Post by EACLucifer » Sun May 15, 2022 5:04 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 12:05 pm
I'd probably agree with that, yes. Cheers.
The main reporting I've seen that protestors - who are mnot described anywhere as members of her family - tried to take the coffin is this article by the Washington Post.

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jimbob
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Re: The Invasion of Palestine

Post by jimbob » Sun May 15, 2022 8:30 pm

Bellingcat's collation of the evidence they have found

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/20 ... abu-akleh/
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Woodchopper
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Re: The Invasion of Palestine

Post by Woodchopper » Sun May 15, 2022 10:00 pm

jimbob wrote:
Sun May 15, 2022 8:30 pm
Bellingcat's collation of the evidence they have found

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/20 ... abu-akleh/
Thanks, thats very thorough

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