The Invasion of Palestine

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Bird on a Fire
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Re: The Invasion of Palestine

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sat May 14, 2022 9:10 am

EACLucifer wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 9:04 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 8:44 am
Invading armies don't generally get invited to participate in investigations, no. I'm sure Ukraine isn't inviting Russia to join investigations of civilian casualties either.

If you don't want Palestinians to investigate shootings that happened near where you were shooting, simply avoid going to Palestine shooting people.
You have a special way of taking a complicated situation and distilling it into a stupid piece of simplistic rhetoric that doesn't actually mean very much, and reflects your preconceptions more than it does any knowledge of what's actually going on in the region. Bonus points for an imbelcilic comparison which shows you probably don't understand much about the Russian invasion of Ukraine, either.

The two groups that could have fired the shot that killed her are;

The IDF
Palestinian Militants tolerated by the PA - in this case Islamic Jihad and Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade.

Neither should be the sole investigator.
Of course not. The PA wants an independent investigation at the ICC, which seems much more sensible. The International Federation of Journalists had already referred Israel there. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... der-attack

Investigating oneself is never the answer. Hopefully Israel will swiftly agree to a transparent, independent investigation like the Palestinians are asking for.
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Re: The Invasion of Palestine

Post by EACLucifer » Sat May 14, 2022 9:37 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 9:06 am
As for attacking grieving family members at a funeral, even the US has condemned it. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... el-blinken
To be clear, whatever lead to it, it's a horrible situation for a family that's already gone through far too much in the last few days.



When I say I want to establish a clear timeline, there's a reason, and that's because the following scenarios look the same from a snapshot taken in the middle, but are very different in who is to blame;

Police charge funeral, people throw things in response.
Rioters throw projectiles from funeral procession, police move in against them.

And the truth could also be somewhere between the two scenarios.

The violence in the footage is not one way. Views that are less zoomed in than the short clip that's circulating widely also show projectiles being thrown by the crowd, with some of them appearing to hide behind the coffin during/after doing so.

The US don't necessarily have much more information on this. It's always important to look at the wider picture, and sometimes that means waiting and seeing. The Israeli Police account is that rioters blocked the hearse and wanted to parade the coffin on their shoulders, and report that objects were thrown at them before the funeral began. Their account is obviously going to be biased. So are the accounts from the other side of things.

There's also reports that youths taking part in the funeral procession attacked a Haredi man, in case you were thinking that it would be fine to just let an angry crowd of approximately ten thousand do whatever they wanted.

And in the time it's taken me to do even a tiny bit of fact checking - just checking what claims even are - you've already regurgitated another narrative-laden Grauniad article. Take a moment to read around different sources, see what the different claims are. Even just check how things look when filmed from different angles, or with different zoom levels.

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Re: The Invasion of Palestine

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sat May 14, 2022 10:31 am

Here's the timeline from the BBC reporter who was there:
We were in the car park of St Joseph's hospital, where hundreds of Palestinian mourners had gathered ready for Shireen Abu Aqla's coffin to be carried out into a waiting hearse.

There was a shrine of written tributes, a floral crucifix (Shireen was a Palestinian Christian) and poignantly a press flak jacket among the flowers. Many were in tears. There was some chanting and Palestinian flags were being flown.

Suddenly the gates to the compound were closed and heavily armed Israeli border police, some on horseback, appeared on the other side of them. Given the circumstances it already felt confrontational.

The coffin was brought out of the building carried by a group of pallbearers. While the plan was for the procession to the church to use the hearse, the coffin was now being carried towards the closed gates.

What happened next was extraordinary. I was behind the packed crowd so I couldn't see the front point of contact, but the Israeli police suddenly pushed back the crowd, including the coffin and its carriers.

They fired stun grenades towards the mourners and the press and were storming into the compound. From my vantage point - not at the front of the crowd - I saw a couple of plastic bottles being thrown back, nothing more. People ran to take cover inside the hospital. I saw a woman with a young baby in a carrier sling distraught, almost being crushed in the panic.

The echo of stun grenades rang out in the hospital corridors and wards. I saw at least one man wounded.

This seemed to go on for around 10 minutes, as we sought a safe route back towards the car park. After we came out, the coffin left in the hearse through the gates. And now videos have emerged showing what happened while people were rushing inside - Israeli police beating and kicking the pallbearers, who were in retreat carrying Shireen Abu Aqla's coffin. At one stage it nearly slipped from their grasp, falling towards the ground.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-61437601

I've not read any accounts nor seen any footage suggesting that the funeral party started violence. Interested in any credible links to the contrary, because mainstream media is giving a very consistent version of events that's become increasingly distant from the Israeli forces' version of events as time goes by, e.g. the BBC was originally more equivocal about what happened. Every country that's made a statement will have been able to talk to their journalists and diplomatic staff who were there.

It sounds more like the Israeli forces were triggered by the display of Palestinian resistance and decided to crush it. They are reported as threatening to stop the funeral if the mourners didn't stop chanting and waving flags, which is what they then did.
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Re: The Invasion of Palestine

Post by EACLucifer » Sat May 14, 2022 11:25 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 10:31 am
Here's the timeline from the BBC reporter who was there:
We were in the car park of St Joseph's hospital, where hundreds of Palestinian mourners had gathered ready for Shireen Abu Aqla's coffin to be carried out into a waiting hearse.

There was a shrine of written tributes, a floral crucifix (Shireen was a Palestinian Christian) and poignantly a press flak jacket among the flowers. Many were in tears. There was some chanting and Palestinian flags were being flown.

Suddenly the gates to the compound were closed and heavily armed Israeli border police, some on horseback, appeared on the other side of them. Given the circumstances it already felt confrontational.

The coffin was brought out of the building carried by a group of pallbearers. While the plan was for the procession to the church to use the hearse, the coffin was now being carried towards the closed gates.

What happened next was extraordinary. I was behind the packed crowd so I couldn't see the front point of contact, but the Israeli police suddenly pushed back the crowd, including the coffin and its carriers.

They fired stun grenades towards the mourners and the press and were storming into the compound. From my vantage point - not at the front of the crowd - I saw a couple of plastic bottles being thrown back, nothing more. People ran to take cover inside the hospital. I saw a woman with a young baby in a carrier sling distraught, almost being crushed in the panic.

The echo of stun grenades rang out in the hospital corridors and wards. I saw at least one man wounded.

This seemed to go on for around 10 minutes, as we sought a safe route back towards the car park. After we came out, the coffin left in the hearse through the gates. And now videos have emerged showing what happened while people were rushing inside - Israeli police beating and kicking the pallbearers, who were in retreat carrying Shireen Abu Aqla's coffin. At one stage it nearly slipped from their grasp, falling towards the ground.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-61437601

I've not read any accounts nor seen any footage suggesting that the funeral party started violence. Interested in any credible links to the contrary, because mainstream media is giving a very consistent version of events that's become increasingly distant from the Israeli forces' version of events as time goes by, e.g. the BBC was originally more equivocal about what happened. Every country that's made a statement will have been able to talk to their journalists and diplomatic staff who were there.

It sounds more like the Israeli forces were triggered by the display of Palestinian resistance and decided to crush it. They are reported as threatening to stop the funeral if the mourners didn't stop chanting and waving flags, which is what they then did.
I'll get back to this in a day or two. Partly, it's because I want to wait for more sources (and some witnesses to events won't be online today), but mostly it's because I'm absolutely shattered.

However, that account appears to confirm one part of the Police's version of events - that the procession that was planned to use a hearse and security was in place accordingly, and that people carrying it on their shoulders was a change in the plans.

Regardless of how the violence started, it appears that the force the police used was excessive.

However, a large crowd of angry people marching through a mixed city is dangerous and at a minimum it looks like the procession deviated from agreed plans. From what I've seen, I don't think the response was proportionate, but I don't think there was no danger to respond to, either.

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Re: The Invasion of Palestine

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sat May 14, 2022 12:05 pm

I'd probably agree with that, yes. Cheers.
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Re: The Invasion of Palestine

Post by EACLucifer » Sun May 15, 2022 5:04 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 12:05 pm
I'd probably agree with that, yes. Cheers.
The main reporting I've seen that protestors - who are mnot described anywhere as members of her family - tried to take the coffin is this article by the Washington Post.

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Re: The Invasion of Palestine

Post by jimbob » Sun May 15, 2022 8:30 pm

Bellingcat's collation of the evidence they have found

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/20 ... abu-akleh/
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: The Invasion of Palestine

Post by Woodchopper » Sun May 15, 2022 10:00 pm

jimbob wrote:
Sun May 15, 2022 8:30 pm
Bellingcat's collation of the evidence they have found

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/20 ... abu-akleh/
Thanks, thats very thorough

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Re: The Invasion of Palestine

Post by EACLucifer » Tue May 24, 2022 1:35 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Sun May 15, 2022 10:00 pm
jimbob wrote:
Sun May 15, 2022 8:30 pm
Bellingcat's collation of the evidence they have found

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/20 ... abu-akleh/
Thanks, thats very thorough
Not thorough enough to note what appears to be fire from a rooftop during video two, which, going by their geolocation of the video, was pretty close to the Israeli positions, and the fire aimed northwards. It is, to be fair, really hard to spot.

Nor to consider that the eyewitness - Ali al-Samoudi - they link to couldn't possibly have seen who was firing on them as he was hit in the back, and thus facing away. Nor that the initial claims, as reported by Al Jazeera, were directly contradicted by claims by both the IDF and PIJ, and by the videos.

In short, it's still unclear. Could have been the IDF, could have been PIJ or AAMB. The things that could shed light on it now are either the comparison between the bullet and rifles that may have fired it. Israel's offered this, PA's refused, and if it didn't match the IDF rifle, there's no way the Jenin brigades would offer up their rifles. The other thing that might shed more light is footage from the group of journalists at the north end of the road the gun battle took place on, there's been a little footage released since the initial few videos, but it doesn't really shed any new light on the situation.


Oh, and BOAF - footage from Al Arabiya shows that the crowd were throwing projectiles before the police went in. This - along with the detail that before the event there was talk of a hearse and the report you linked and others say the crowd wanted to parade the coffin on there shoulders - is actually pretty close to the police version of events. There's nothing wrong with condemning the police's use of force as two wrongs do not make a right. Meanwhile, if you are still wondering why they did not want a change of plans and for an angry crowd (mostly not family members, as far as I can tell, as some of the chanting is about shaheeds), here's the crowd later on, masked gunmen, calls for violence, nazi salutes and all.

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Re: The Invasion of Palestine

Post by Woodchopper » Tue May 24, 2022 8:11 pm

Investigations by the Associated Press and CNN

Review suggests Israeli fire killed reporter, no final word
https://apnews.com/article/politics-wes ... 2b401e7a2c

'They were shooting directly at the journalists': New evidence suggests Shireen Abu Akleh was killed in targeted attack by Israeli forces
https://edition.cnn.com/2022/05/24/midd ... index.html

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Re: The Invasion of Palestine

Post by EACLucifer » Tue May 24, 2022 9:15 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 8:11 pm
Investigations by the Associated Press and CNN

Review suggests Israeli fire killed reporter, no final word
https://apnews.com/article/politics-wes ... 2b401e7a2c

'They were shooting directly at the journalists': New evidence suggests Shireen Abu Akleh was killed in targeted attack by Israeli forces
https://edition.cnn.com/2022/05/24/midd ... index.html
The testimony that there were no armed Palestinians or gunfights is either specific to the precise area they were in, or contradicted by the evidence released by both sides of a significant gun battle further down the road.

In the video termed "Video 2" by Bellingcat, there is a puff of gunsmoke that coincides with a gunshot on one of the rooves, as best as I can tell someone on that roof would have had line of sight to the area the journalists were in.

The account from which CNN pulled the quote "they were shooting directly at the journalists" comes from someone who believed the shots were coming from the Israeli vehicles because of the angle and the type of vehicle the Israelis were in. The other proposed scenario - stray fire from Palestinian gunmen just south of the Israeli positions, would have come from the same angle.

As for the insistence of deliberate assassination, there simply is no motive. Al Jazeera have been absolutely horrific on Israel for years - including broadcasting holocaust denial and throwing a party for a man who beat a four year old girl to death - and yet Israel has never felt inclined to kill an Al Jazeera journalist before for the simple reason that whatever harm Al Jazeera does to Israel, it is worsened by incidents like this. The most likely scenarios remain stray gunfire, and misidentification as a combatant - by either side.

Given the Palestinian Authority are refusing a joint investigation, it will either take a change of heart - perhaps with a third party handling it - or new footage to emerge to get a conclusive answer.

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Re: The Invasion of Palestine

Post by tom p » Wed May 25, 2022 4:53 pm

EACLucifer wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 11:25 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 10:31 am
Here's the timeline from the BBC reporter who was there:
We were in the car park of St Joseph's hospital, where hundreds of Palestinian mourners had gathered ready for Shireen Abu Aqla's coffin to be carried out into a waiting hearse.

There was a shrine of written tributes, a floral crucifix (Shireen was a Palestinian Christian) and poignantly a press flak jacket among the flowers. Many were in tears. There was some chanting and Palestinian flags were being flown.

Suddenly the gates to the compound were closed and heavily armed Israeli border police, some on horseback, appeared on the other side of them. Given the circumstances it already felt confrontational.

The coffin was brought out of the building carried by a group of pallbearers. While the plan was for the procession to the church to use the hearse, the coffin was now being carried towards the closed gates.

What happened next was extraordinary. I was behind the packed crowd so I couldn't see the front point of contact, but the Israeli police suddenly pushed back the crowd, including the coffin and its carriers.

They fired stun grenades towards the mourners and the press and were storming into the compound. From my vantage point - not at the front of the crowd - I saw a couple of plastic bottles being thrown back, nothing more. People ran to take cover inside the hospital. I saw a woman with a young baby in a carrier sling distraught, almost being crushed in the panic.

The echo of stun grenades rang out in the hospital corridors and wards. I saw at least one man wounded.

This seemed to go on for around 10 minutes, as we sought a safe route back towards the car park. After we came out, the coffin left in the hearse through the gates. And now videos have emerged showing what happened while people were rushing inside - Israeli police beating and kicking the pallbearers, who were in retreat carrying Shireen Abu Aqla's coffin. At one stage it nearly slipped from their grasp, falling towards the ground.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-61437601

I've not read any accounts nor seen any footage suggesting that the funeral party started violence. Interested in any credible links to the contrary, because mainstream media is giving a very consistent version of events that's become increasingly distant from the Israeli forces' version of events as time goes by, e.g. the BBC was originally more equivocal about what happened. Every country that's made a statement will have been able to talk to their journalists and diplomatic staff who were there.

It sounds more like the Israeli forces were triggered by the display of Palestinian resistance and decided to crush it. They are reported as threatening to stop the funeral if the mourners didn't stop chanting and waving flags, which is what they then did.
I'll get back to this in a day or two. Partly, it's because I want to wait for more sources (and some witnesses to events won't be online today), but mostly it's because I'm absolutely shattered.

However, that account appears to confirm one part of the Police's version of events - that the procession that was planned to use a hearse and security was in place accordingly, and that people carrying it on their shoulders was a change in the plans.

Regardless of how the violence started, it appears that the force the police used was excessive.

However, a large crowd of angry people marching through a mixed city is dangerous and at a minimum it looks like the procession deviated from agreed plans. From what I've seen, I don't think the response was proportionate, but I don't think there was no danger to respond to, either.
The emboldened part is what makes you so unhinged.
Lucy wrote:Oh, and BOAF - footage from Al Arabiya shows that the crowd were throwing projectiles before the police went in.
I watched that video you linked to & your precis is somewhat inaccurate. The cops were already there, blocking the way before you see anything being thrown.
As for the use of the word "projectiles", very smart - nice and neutral, innit? Why, you almost sound like a fair & balanced disinterested party, merely reporting facts, as opposed to trying to suggest that the 9 (yes, I counted them) things that looked like plastic bottles (and they really do look like plastic bottles, but they might have been empty glass ones - though you can bet the Israeli govt would have said if they had found so much as a single shard of glass anywhere near their lines) might have been weapons that might cause some damage. Then the IDF attacked. And clearly not in response to anything being thrown, 'cos it sailed way over the heads of the front-line, and with their helmets they probably would hardly have even seen them.

Out of interest, is there any degree of IDF brutality & murder that you wouldn't find a way to defend?

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Re: The Invasion of Palestine

Post by EACLucifer » Wed May 25, 2022 6:20 pm

Hey tom, I suggest you try reading the f.cking thread. I've already said the use of force by the police in Jerusalem was excessive.

I pretty much always use the word projectile for things being thrown when I'm not sure what they are.

I also linked to footage of the crowd later on, complete with masked militiamen with rifles, nazi salutes, chants for violence and so on. It is not remotely unhinged to say that they may have represented a threat to the majority Jewish city through which they wanted to march, and that it was justified to want them to stick to the agreed route for the procession, not least so that Jews could stay safely out of their way.

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Re: The Invasion of Palestine

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:25 pm

To the surprise of absolutely nobody, it was definitely Israel who dun it concludes UN investigation.
Speaking to reporters in Geneva on Friday, Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) spokeswoman Ravina Shamdasani said the department had found that "the shots that killed Abu Aqla and injured her colleague Ali Sammoudi came from Israeli security forces and not from indiscriminate firing by armed Palestinians, as initially claimed by Israeli authorities".

"It is deeply disturbing that Israeli authorities have not conducted a criminal investigation," she added.
Ms Shamdasani said the OHCHR had "found no information suggesting that there was activity by armed Palestinians in the immediate vicinity of the journalists".
Watch as Israel fans try to claim the UN is biased against them, like they normally do. Zero credibility.
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Re: The Invasion of Palestine

Post by Woodchopper » Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:37 pm

Also the NY Times using video evidence:
The Killing of Shireen Abu Akleh: Tracing a Bullet to an Israeli Convoy
A New York Times investigation found that the bullet that killed a Palestinian-American journalist was fired from the approximate position of an Israeli military vehicle.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/20/worl ... ireen.html

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Re: The Invasion of Palestine

Post by EACLucifer » Sat Jun 25, 2022 3:33 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:37 pm
Also the NY Times using video evidence:
The Killing of Shireen Abu Akleh: Tracing a Bullet to an Israeli Convoy
A New York Times investigation found that the bullet that killed a Palestinian-American journalist was fired from the approximate position of an Israeli military vehicle.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/20/worl ... ireen.html
Their own range analysis indicates the bullets were fired from at least twenty two metres nearer than the Israeli positions - quite a discrepancy. There are factors that can affect that analysis if the shooter is firing at an angle past the microphone, but the audio was recorded by a microphone extremely close to the top of the long north south road, if the Israelis had been firing north at people on that road, the microphone would have been really quite close to the trajectory.

They also refused to consider other possibilities - like Bellingcat (who got the audio analysis dead wrong by measuring from the IDF position to Shireen Abu Akleh's position, not the position of the microphone) due to the presence of a wall along the southern edge of a cemetery blocking shots from known Katibat Jenin* positions to the south east, but the wall isn't high enough to block line of sight from the buildings in that area.

And those buildings are significant, as eyewitness reports on the actual day were talking about being fired upon from buildings. Ali al-Samoudri - who was wounded - reported the following;

"After a few minutes, we heard the sound of bullets raining down on us from the side of the occupation soldiers who were on the roofs of the buildings opposite us"

Shatha Hanaysha, also present, gave these quotes.

"We saw the crowd pointing at the building where the snipers were. What happened is that we were standing across from a building with snipers." and "we were between a wall and the sniper"

The statements are a lot more consistent with fire coming from the buildings to the southeast than they are with fire coming from a firing port in a vehicle.

There's also this video from shortly before Shireen Abu Akleh was hit, hosted by blogger Elder of Ziyon, who arranged for the dialogue to be translated.

In this video, a group of locals and/or journalists is discussing buildings with snipers in to the southeast, with someone apparently asking if they are shebab (literally "youths", but in this context militants). The buildings are just about visible at a couple of points, indicating a line of sight, but mostly aren't because it's filmed by people taking cover from those exact buildings.

The significance of the audio analysis is perhaps best shown by this NYT graphic, with a couple of key additions by Elder of Ziyon noting the actual distance to the IDF vehicles. The buildings he has indentified as potential Palestinian sniper positions are right where a group of apparent Katibat Jenin fighters were noted, and appear to be the buildings discussed in the video mentioned in the paragraph above. It is worth remembering we are working with snapshots here - most of the audiovisual evidence came through one Telegram channel, which apparently explicitly told people not to document the positions of gunmen.

Image

In short, Bellingcat's analysis was flawed, I sincerely hope due to being rushed and not deliberately fudged, as they wrongly ruled out potential lines of fire and f.cked up the sound analysis. Pretty much everyone else seems to have largely copied Bellingcat. Details like Al Jazeera talking about the bullet aren't remotely conclusive - it's an SS109, one of the most commonly used military cartridges in the world, and apparently in use by both sides. The PA's claim that the IDF used a Ruger needs to be considered in light of the fact that I've not found any evidence of the IDF using Rugers in that calibre, and nor, as far as I can tell, has anyone else. The audio evidence points more to it being a Katibat Jenin gunman, but I still don't think we have enough evidence to be really conclusive, and we may never. The most parsimonious explanation for why either side were firing in that direction is misidentification of the group of journalists as combatants - one flak-jacket and helmeted silhouette looks a lot like any other at 150+m.




*Katibat Jenin is an umbrella group for militants in Jenin, and seems to largely consist of Palestinian Islamic Jihad and Al-Aqsa Marytyrs Brigade members, though one person recently killed while operating them was buried with what looks like an Islamic State flag.

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Re: The Invasion of Palestine

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:47 am

The European Union accused Israel on Wednesday of undermining prospects for a two-state solution by expanding West Bank settlements and Jewish neighborhoods in East Jerusalem.

In a report, the bloc’s mission to the Palestinians criticized the “continuously increasing settlement expansion on occupied Palestinian territories.”

The report charged that in 2021, the number of settlement units advanced in East Jerusalem more than doubled, from 6,288 the previous year to 14,894.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/eu-sounds ... expansion/

Also seems that having extremists in government has emboldened the rest of the ethnic cleansing enthusiasts:
The report was published the same day thousands of right-wing Israeli activists flocked to the West Bank in an initiative led by the radical settler organization Nachala to establish new illegal outposts in the territory.
Several far-right Israeli lawmakers, including Religious Zionism MKs Orit Strock and Simcha Rothman, arrived at the new outpost on Thursday morning to lend their support to the initiative.

Interior Minister Ayelet Shaked tweeted her support for the activists late Wednesday night, describing them as “wonderful youth” who are “a real inspiration,” adding: “Be strong and courageous!”
Luckily they didn't get very far, probably because they're as incompetent as emboldened right-wing extremists elsewhere. But a worrying trend alongside the state-sanctioned ethnic cleansing.
Wednesday’s EU report also noted “a worrisome trend of rising settler violence” in the West Bank.

Last month, 27-year-old Palestinian Ali Hassan Harb was killed during a confrontation between settlers and Palestinians on the edges of his hometown of Iskaka. A group of Israelis had arrived in the area with construction materials in an apparent attempt to build a new illegal outpost.

According to data released by the Shin Bet, the number of attacks carried out by extremist Jewish settlers rose in 2021 by nearly 50 percent.

Most of the cases are never solved. Since 2005, just 3 percent of police investigations into extremist violence against Palestinians have led to indictments, according to the left-wing Yesh Din rights group.
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Re: The Invasion of Palestine

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:48 am

Of course it'll be interesting to see if the EU actually does anything, rather than merely saying stuff yet again.
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Re: The Invasion of Palestine

Post by Woodchopper » Mon Sep 05, 2022 1:44 pm

An Israeli military probe found a soldier likely killed veteran Al Jazeera journalist Shireen Abu Akleh in errant fire. An official says there will be no criminal probe, meaning no punishment for the soldier or others in the military.
https://twitter.com/ap/status/156677707 ... QIqEi_ln8w

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Re: The Invasion of Palestine

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Sep 05, 2022 4:56 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Sep 05, 2022 1:44 pm
An Israeli military probe found a soldier likely killed veteran Al Jazeera journalist Shireen Abu Akleh in errant fire. An official says there will be no criminal probe, meaning no punishment for the soldier or others in the military.
https://twitter.com/ap/status/156677707 ... QIqEi_ln8w
Not a huge surprise - everyone had figured that out already - but nice of them to admit partial responsibility, finally, after months of dissembling and obstruction.

I see they're still lying about there having been Palestinian gunfire coming from the area, though. Either because the soldier in question was so incompetent he couldn't read the word "PRESS" on her hat and jacket, or because they really do have a deliberate unofficial policy of targeting journalists, which would explain why so many of these "accidents" seem to happen.

Maybe they should start punishing wrongdoers, though. There were no repercussions for the people who thought beating up her pallbearers was a good idea either. Consequences for bad actions might help to change behaviour, and make Israel look like less of a rogue state.
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Re: The Invasion of Palestine

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Sep 05, 2022 4:57 pm

Still, looking forward to the volte-face from Israel shills who now have to decide between trying to pick holes in Israel's investigations like they did with all the previous ones, or anything that their previous insistence the Palestinians did it was based on bias rather than reality.
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Re: The Invasion of Palestine

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Dec 06, 2022 1:54 pm

Al Jazeera have referred the killing of Shireen Abu Aqla to the ICC.

Obviously as an organisation sponsored by Qatar, Al Jazeera are not an ideal appellant. On the other hand, Aqla is not well represented internationally: as a Palestinian American, other options would be Palestine (which is denied statehood) and the US (which, like Israel, doesn't recognise the ICC). The US have also opened an investigation via the FBI, but personally as someone who believes in international law I think it's best cases of potential war crimes are investigated by an independent entity with international composition and jurisdiction.
The Al Jazeera network has submitted a case against Israeli forces at the International Criminal Court (ICC) over the killing of Shireen Abu Aqla.

The Palestinian-American journalist was shot in the head during an Israeli army raid in the occupied West Bank in May.

The Israeli military concluded that one of its soldiers probably killed her, but called her death unintentional.

Al Jazeera said that was completely unfounded and that its evidence showed it was a "deliberate killing".

Outgoing Israeli Prime Minister Yair Lapid said: "No-one will investigate [Israel Defense Forces] soldiers and no-one will preach to us about morals in warfare, certainly not Al Jazeera."

Israel does not recognise the ICC's authority and has refused to co-operate with an investigation by the Hague-based court's prosecutor into possible war crimes in the occupied territories.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-63871856

"No-one will investigate IDF soldiers" is a nice touch. "We are above the law."
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Re: The Invasion of Palestine

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Dec 19, 2022 12:06 am

Human rights lawyer imprisoned for months without trial then deported from East Jerusalem, following the typical bogus claims the NGO he works for does "terrorism".

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-64016598

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addameer

The Israeli regime really are sick f.cks.
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Re: The Invasion of Palestine

Post by EACLucifer » Mon Dec 19, 2022 4:31 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Dec 19, 2022 12:06 am
Human rights lawyer imprisoned for months without trial then deported from East Jerusalem
And attempted murderer only freed because of the 2011 prisoner exchange. You missed out attempted murderer, yet attempted murderer is the key point here.
following the typical bogus claims the NGO he works for does "terrorism".
Lol. "Bogus". Lmao.

Addameer is accused of strong ties to the PFLP, widely recognised as a terrorist group and most notorious in recent years for the murder of the Fogel family. There's a massive overlap between their senior leadership and PFLP members/activists/terrorists. Here's a few.

Anas Barghouthi, listed as Addameer lawyer up until his arrest in 2013, subsequently convicted of PFLP membership.
Mahmoud al Safadi, listed on Addameer board in 2011 and 2020. Served a long sentence, sources varying on the exact length, with Arabic sources placing him in the PFLP.
Naser Abu Khdair, listed on Addameer board in 2011 and 2020, tried to run for election on PFLP slate in 2021 but Mahmoud Abbas, 17 years into his first 4 year term, cancelled them. Did prison time for PFLP membership, and was referred to in a PFLP article as a PFLP official in 2018 - apparently during his time at Addameer. Once injured himself making a bomb.
Bashir Al-Khairi, Listed on Addameer board in 2019 and tried to run for (cancelled) election on PFLP slate in 2021. Listed by Arabic sources as being a member of PFLP's national council in relation to a 2010 arrest. Described as a "comrade" and "leader" by PFLP themselves in 2012 and 2014, and was listed as the head of PFLP's political bureau in a 2002 CNN article.
Mahmoud Jiddah, listed on Addameer board in 2019, described as PFLP official in Arabic source in 2006 and "of the PFLP cadres" in Arabic source in 2017.
Yacoub Odeh, listed on Addameer board in 2019, documented as joining the PFLP back in the sixties, spoke at a PFLP ceremony in 2014 where PFLP described him as a "comrade"
Samer Arbid, listed as an accountant at Addameer for some years. More notorious for the murder of seventeen year old Rina Shnerb.
Ayman Nasser, listed by Addameer as coordinator of their legal unit. Convicted of PFLP membership in 2013.
Salah Hamouri, listed as a field researcher and lawyer at Addameer as of 2019. Convicted of attempting to murder a rabbi in 2005 but released in 2011 as part of a prisoner swap, media released in support of him during his detention places him at PFLP rallies and has him appearing with Ahmed Saadat, the PFLP's general secretary, Samir Kuntar, a Hezbollah member who is infamous for beating a four year old girl to death with a rifle butt and who was notoriously celebrated by Al Jazeera after he was exchanged, and Marwan Barghouti, convicted of directing multiple murders in his role as a leader within Shuhada al-Aqsa, and referred to by PFLP as a "comrade" in 2011. This guy, by the way, is the one BOAF described as a "human rights lawyer" without mentioning any of the other stuff.
Khalida Jarrar, listed as vice-chairwoman of Addameer until 2017 and tried to run for (cancelled) election on PFLP slate in 2021, convicted in 2015 of membership in PFLP and incitement to violence.
Abdul-Latif Ghaith, listed as founder of Addameer and board member for the last twenty years in 2011. Described by Ma'an as a member of PFLP's political bureau in 2009, clearly during his time as Addameer board member.

Clearly there's a pretty big overlap. And this list is not and is not meant to be exhaustive.

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Re: The Invasion of Palestine

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Dec 20, 2022 2:06 am

Per my second link:
In October 2021, Addameer was designated a terrorist organization by Israel, together with five other Palestinian non-profit, non-governmental organizations (Al-Haq, Bisan Center for Research and Development, Defence for Children International, Union of Palestinian Women's Committees and Union of Agricultural Work Committees).[12] The designation was condemned by Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch,[13] and the UN Office of the High Commissioner of Human Rights who called it a “frontal attack on the Palestinian human rights movement and on human rights everywhere.”[14]

Reviewing secret Israel intelligence shared with the C.I.A., the latter could find no evidence to verify the Israeli accusations. [15]

In July 2022, nine EU countries (Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Ireland, Italy, the Netherlands, Spain and Sweden) issued a joint statement saying they will continue working with the six Palestinian organizations that Israel had banned because Israel had failed to prove that they should be considered terrorist organisations.[16]
It seems the entire international community - including countries among the most supportive of Israel, with access to undisclosed intelligence - is thoroughly unconvinced by Israel's claims. I think I'll follow their lead.

A mere page ago you were posting a load of similar circumstantial stuff aiming to cast aspersions on the several independent investigations into the killing of Shireen Abu Aqla that all found the IDF almost certainly did it - as the IDF themselves later had to admit.

I don't know what your source is for all this Israeli FUD, but I suggest you approach it a bit more critically, and a bit less credulously, as you would if it were coming from other regimes.
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