Scrutable

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultat ... -and-sales

Fishnut has done a good response

Fishnut wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 04, 2022 10:34 pm

My responses to the consultation:

a) Are there any specific areas of consumer transactions that should be a priority for allowing a choice in units of measurement, and why?
No, this is a stupid idea and I can’t believe money is being wasted on a consultation.

b) Are there any specific areas that you think should be excluded from a choice in units of measurement, and why?
Anything where accuracy and interoperability is important so anything used for engineering, construction, etc.

c) If an item is sold in imperial measures, should there be a requirement for a metric equivalent alongside it?
Yes. There is nothing wrong with the current system and I see no reason why we are wasting time and, more importantly, money, having a consultation on this.

For Consumers,
a) If you had a choice, would you want to purchase items: (i) in imperial units?
 (ii) in imperial units alongside a metric equivalent?
(iii) in metric

b) Are you more likely to shop from businesses that sell in imperial units?
No, I will be significantly less likely to buy from shops that sell solely in imperial units.

c) Do you foresee any costs or benefits to you from businesses being permitted to sell:
(i) solely in imperial units?
(ii) in imperial units alongside a less prominent metric equivalent?
Costs (i) I will have to waste time converting prices to something I can understand. (ii) I will have to waste time searching for the less prominent metric equivalent.

Benefits (i) it will allow me to work out which shops are run by idiots so I can avoid giving them my money.

d) Do you have experience of buying solely in imperial units?
Not that I remember.

I would like to add that I am disgusted that at a time when we are facing a cost of living crisis, energy prices skyrocketing, millions relying on food banks and the climate being destroyed our government has decided that reverting to imperial units is their priority. Imperial units are used by Myanmar and Liberia, and the US uses their own set of imperial units which means they are not fully interchangeable (as anyone who has tried to work out how to cook a recipe written for a US audience will know). What businesses are clamouring for this? What voters? The median age for the UK is 40.5 (that’s me!). I grew up learning and using metric. More than half the population has grown up only learning metric. The idea that we should go back to using units that have been taught as archaic since the 1980s is frankly insane. What next? Going back to pounds, shillings and pence? This isn’t a ‘brexit opportunity’, it’s another sign that this government has no clue how to give this country a future and instead is vainly attempting to resurrect a past that never existed.

probably worth sharing and replying to the biased questions and poorly formatted form

My replies:

1For All,
a) Are there any specific areas of consumer transactions that should be a priority for allowing a choice in units of measurement, and why?
b) Are there any specific areas that you think should be excluded from a choice in units of measurement, and why?
c) If an item is sold in imperial measures, should there be a requirement for a metric equivalent alongside it?

a) No, it’s an added burden on consumers and businesses and would cost everyone money
b) Anything where accuracy is important or vital for safety, including DIY, engineering, medicine, science,
c) There should be no change to now, where pints can be sold in pubs etc. Imperial equivalents should only be shown as a subsidiary as anyone under 70 has spent most of their life using Metric

3 For Consumers,
a) If you had a choice, would you want to purchase items:
(i) in imperial units?
(ii) in imperial units alongside a metric equivalent?
b) Are you more likely to shop from businesses that sell in imperial units?
c) Do you foresee any costs or benefits to you from businesses being permitted to sell:
(i) solely in imperial units?
(ii) in imperial units alongside a less prominent metric equivalent?
d) Do you have experience of buying solely in imperial units?

a) In metric units only
b) No – less likely
c) Only costs – confusion and difficulty comparing prices, and difficulty ordering from abroad or exporting unless two sets of units are included
d) Only pints in pubs

My replies:

1 For All,
a) Are there any specific areas of consumer transactions that should be a priority for allowing a choice in units of measurement, and why?
b) Are there any specific areas that you think should be excluded from a choice in units of measurement, and why?
c) If an item is sold in imperial measures, should there be a requirement for a metric equivalent alongside it?

a) No. I can see no benefit in allowing a choice of units like this. It has the potential to allow businesses to mark-up prices on consumers who cannot perform unit conversions in their head, and/or alternatively increases the chance for a business to lose money if their conversion is erroneous and effectively offers two different prices depending on the unit of measurement you are buying in. Goods and services should only have one price, and it should be clear what that is.
b) Personally, I think any area should be excluded from a choice of unit of measurement (see above), but certainly any area where precision is required for health or safety, such as: engineering, science, medicine, etc.
c) I cannot see a reason to change the current system. The few items sold in imperial measures (eg, pints) are fine and do not require a metric equivalent (no-one wants to buy a 568.26 ml!) People are buying a known quantity.

2 For Businesses,
What would be the consequences of your business having the freedom to sell products in imperial measures, if you wished?

I am not a UK business holder, so this section is not applicable to me. However, if I were a business holder and had to provide a choice of units of measurement I sold in, I can imagine that this would increase the costs of doing business.

3 For Consumers,
a) If you had a choice, would you want to purchase items:
(i) in imperial units?
(ii) in imperial units alongside a metric equivalent?
b) Are you more likely to shop from businesses that sell in imperial units?
c) Do you foresee any costs or benefits to you from businesses being permitted to sell:
(i) solely in imperial units?
(ii) in imperial units alongside a less prominent metric equivalent?
d) Do you have experience of buying solely in imperial units?

a) iii) in metric units only, which should have been an option given above if this consultation was aiming for an unbiased answer.
b) No – less likely. I am in my late 40s and was raised on metric units, so I would be more wary of shopping from a business which sold only in imperial units. (Even though I am fully aware of the imperial system, being well educated (Masters degree in engineering) and able to perform most of the required conversions in my head.)
c) I can really only foresee extra costs, time and difficulty as I will be forced to spend extra time comparing prices in different units, especially if there is a choice between a British business and a foreign business.
d) Aside from buying pints and measures in pubs? Yes, I started working in engineering in a time when imperial units still dominated things like pipe sizes, even though calculations required metric units; so, for instance, a 24” pipe had to be converted to a 609.6 mm pipe. In the 25 years I have worked in the industry this has largely changed such that (apart from the US) things are now standardised in metric so that a ‘24”’ pipe will now be 600 mm, and this will be the same the world over. British industry moving back to a 24” pipe being 609.6 mm would mean that a British company would struggle to sell their produce to anywhere else round the world.

4 For Trading Standards,
What potential impacts might there be on regulatory activity, including any costs or benefits?

If businesses are required to meet regulations based on two different units of measurement, I can only foresee that this will increase the cost of doing business, with those costs being passed onto the consumer. This will increase prices (resulting in increased inflation) and lead to UK businesses being less able to compete on a world stage.

My replies
For All
a) Are there any specific areas of consumer transactions that should be a priority for allowing a choice in units of measurement, and why?
I can’t think of any areas that should be prioritised. The country has bigger priorities involving levelling up, improving health and social care, the shortage of labour in certain areas, improving home insulation and the wider issues of climate change. All of these are issues that need addressing, not looking at units of measurement.
b) Are there any specific areas that you think should be excluded from a choice in units of measurement, and why?
The retail sale of goods. Allowing a mix of units of measurement will make it difficult for consumers to easily compare the value of offers in terms of unit pricing.
Medicines etc – for the protection of the public it is vital that we have consistency in measurement for medicines. Given the transnational basis of pharmaceuticals manufacturing, metric measures have to remain the priority.
DIY materials. When consumers are making purchases of items such as wood and ‘boards’ (plasterboard, plywood sheets, chipboard etc) it is important for the avoidance of waste, that people know that goods bought from different vendors will be of a consistent size.
Similarly, the standard for hardware is now to use metric measures, which allows the safe mixing and matching of bolts & nuts, ensuring that they fit together securely and safely.
c) If an item is sold in imperial measures, should there be a requirement for a metric equivalent alongside it?
Obviously yes. If the wrong decision is made on allowing vendors to confuse matters by reverting to a system of measurement that has barely been used in a generation, then it is essential that customers continue to have some level of consistency available by retaining the use (indeed the prioritisation) of metric units

For Consumers,
a) If you had a choice, would you want to purchase items:
(i) in imperial units?
(ii) in imperial units alongside a metric equivalent?
(i) No
(ii) No
Both of these are stupid regressive ideas

b) Are you more likely to shop from businesses that sell in imperial units?
No – I will avoid them.

c) Do you foresee any costs or benefits to you from businesses being permitted to sell:
(i) solely in imperial units?
(ii) in imperial units alongside a less prominent metric equivalent?
Of course there will be costs
(i) how can there NOT be costs if you require special labels to show the new sizes, new bottle sizes (unless you expect people to buy wine in 1pint and 6.4 fl oz bottles, or cordial in 1 pint and 15 fl oz bottles)
(ii) if you mean, letting manufacturers include an imperial amount next to the current metric measure; there may be a difference in pricing.
If a 500g bag of carrots currently sells for 99p, I do not expect stores to sell a 1lb bag for 90p – you know as well as I do, that it’ll cost 99p – that’s the price of a bag of carrots. We’ll all get short measure.

My covering email suggested that Rees Mogg must be appalled at the waste of effort being expended on this stupid consultation.

and ended with a
PS - I recently went to our local DIY shop to buy a curtain rod, the shopkeeper asked me how long I want it; so I told him I’d like to keep it.

Most of my answers are very similar to those above so I won't bore you with them but I will just share these two as they are a little different.

In the section on costs to me of fully imperial pricing:

Additionally, while not a financial cost, I would have to spend a considerable amount of time teaching my 11 year old daughter about gallons, pints and fluid ounces; pounds and ounces; yards, feet and inches. While it would certainly help instil her 3, 8, 12, 16, and 20 times tables, I can think of far better and more productive ways to do this.

And in answer to the question about having experience buying solely in imperial units:

Yes, I do. I was brought up buying sweets in quarter pounds, and accompanying my parents shopping, buying meat and cheese in pounds, half and quarter pounds. All our milk came in pint bottles. This was still the case when I first started shopping and cooking for myself. And frankly, I have no desire whatsoever to go back to those days. Metric is a whole lot simpler to use, much easier to multiply up quantities, or figure out how much each of the 3 of us in my family will have if I am to share out a pack of however many grams between us. It’s also a lot easier to cross-compare pricing between different versions of a product as if I’m looking at an item priced per 100g vs one priced per kg I simply have to add/remove a zero or move a decimal point. Whereas if the prices were per ounce vs per pound, I would need to brush up my 16 times table.

This was in part to address specifically the stupid argument I keep hearing that imperial is much easier to divide as you can just keep halving so much more easily. They seem to forget that some people want to divide by 3 and imperial isn't exactly set up for that, except for linear measurements. And also, that pricing isn't always in the same units, and comparing metric variations (eg per 100g vs per kg) is a whole lot easier than comparing per ounce vs per pound. Or per fl oz vs per pint.

You could add the costs of purchasing new textbooks for every school to the costs.

dyqik wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 07, 2022 12:07 pm

You could add the costs of purchasing new textbooks for every school to the costs.

Just do the reverse of what my primary school did; cross out the metric measures, and rework the questions out in imperial. In every copy, of every textbook.

The biggest training effort would be teaching people who have never learned imperial units about the British system and the American system so they don't get confused. Or rather so that when they forget how many ounces make a pint they are forewarned the internet will mislead them.

Rich Scopie wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 07, 2022 1:46 pm

dyqik wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 07, 2022 12:07 pm

You could add the costs of purchasing new textbooks for every school to the costs.

Just do the reverse of what my primary school did; cross out the metric measures, and rework the questions out in imperial. In every copy, of every textbook.

Doesn't work in the software schools use...

dyqik wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 07, 2022 2:56 pm

Rich Scopie wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 07, 2022 1:46 pm

dyqik wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 07, 2022 12:07 pm

You could add the costs of purchasing new textbooks for every school to the costs.

Just do the reverse of what my primary school did; cross out the metric measures, and rework the questions out in imperial. In every copy, of every textbook.

Doesn't work in the software schools use...

If we're going back to imperial, we're presumably going back to dead tree and ink textbooks... And quills.

Rich Scopie wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 07, 2022 3:50 pm

dyqik wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 07, 2022 2:56 pm

Rich Scopie wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 07, 2022 1:46 pm

Just do the reverse of what my primary school did; cross out the metric measures, and rework the questions out in imperial. In every copy, of every textbook.

Doesn't work in the software schools use...

If we're going back to imperial, we're presumably going back to dead tree and ink textbooks... And quills.

What size paper though? quarto, octavo?

dyqik wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:58 pm

Rich Scopie wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 07, 2022 3:50 pm

dyqik wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 07, 2022 2:56 pm

Doesn't work in the software schools use...

If we're going back to imperial, we're presumably going back to dead tree and ink textbooks... And quills.

What size paper though? quarto, octavo?

Foolscap.

I remember a junior school teacher still calling it that when he meant A4, even if they're not actually the same size at all.

dyqik wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:58 pm

Rich Scopie wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 07, 2022 3:50 pm

dyqik wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 07, 2022 2:56 pm

Doesn't work in the software schools use...

If we're going back to imperial, we're presumably going back to dead tree and ink textbooks... And quills.

What size paper though? quarto, octavo?

Just think of all the commercial opportunities for British printer manufacturers when they outfit all offices in the UK with new printers that accept foolscap folio instead of that A4 metric nonsense.

I had forgotten what a pain it was for word processing and printing software to default to "letter" and how long it took to spot each time because it looks so innocuous in the settings until you remember it's a paper size you never see in this country. So yeah, sure, bring back foolscap. It seems fitting.

And bring back the tradition of only selling goods at a weekly market in each town, except for paper and pens etc sold at university towns from shops that are permanently located - i.e. stationary sellers.

Rich Scopie wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 07, 2022 3:50 pm

dyqik wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 07, 2022 2:56 pm

Rich Scopie wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 07, 2022 1:46 pm

Just do the reverse of what my primary school did; cross out the metric measures, and rework the questions out in imperial. In every copy, of every textbook.

Doesn't work in the software schools use...

If we're going back to imperial, we're presumably going back to dead tree and ink textbooks... And quills.

Quills? We used to dream of having quills as we scratched words onto the slate with our chalk

Remember to suggest Planck units as a more natural alternative than metric or imperial.

dyqik wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:58 pm

Rich Scopie wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 07, 2022 3:50 pm

dyqik wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 07, 2022 2:56 pm

Doesn't work in the software schools use...

If we're going back to imperial, we're presumably going back to dead tree and ink textbooks... And quills.

What size paper though? quarto, octavo?

Parchment scrolls. 210mm wide.

The US and other North/Central American countries use "letter" paper, which is basically quarto. So equipment and supplies are easily available if the UK wants to go backwards in a transatlantic manner.

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 08, 2022 9:03 am

The US and other North/Central American countries use "letter" paper, which is basically quarto. So equipment and supplies are easily available if the UK wants to go backwards in a transatlantic manner.

Um, no.

Letter: 216 x 279
Foolscap quarto: 152.4 x 203.2
Small post quarto: 177.8 x 228.6
Large post quarto: 203.2 x 254
(A4: 210 x 297)

All sizes in mm.

Rich Scopie wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 08, 2022 9:43 am

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 08, 2022 9:03 am

The US and other North/Central American countries use "letter" paper, which is basically quarto. So equipment and supplies are easily available if the UK wants to go backwards in a transatlantic manner.

Um, no.

Letter: 216 x 279
Foolscap quarto: 152.4 x 203.2
Small post quarto: 177.8 x 228.6
Large post quarto: 203.2 x 254
(A4: 210 x 297)

All sizes in mm.

The precise origins of the dimensions of US letter-size paper (8.5 × 11 in) are not known. The American Forest & Paper Association says that the standard US dimensions have their origin in the days of manual papermaking, the 11" length of the standard paper being about a quarter of "the average maximum stretch of an experienced vatman's arms".[1] The letter size falls within the range of the historical quarto size, which since pre-modern times refers to page sizes of 8 to 9 inches (200 to 230 mm) wide and 10 to 11 inches (250 to 280 mm) high, and it is indeed almost exactly one quarter of the old Imperial (British) paper size known as demy quarto – 17+1⁄2 by 22+1⁄2 inches (440 by 570 mm) – allowing a 1⁄2 inch (13 mm) for trimming.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_(paper_size)

A vaguely defined historical standard seems appropriate for such a regressive suggestion. Though the US also uses half-foolscap and calls it "legal".

dyqik wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 07, 2022 11:22 pm

Remember to suggest Planck units as a more natural alternative than metric or imperial.

The answer is always "a dimensionless constant of order unity".

(Or maybe "atomic units" in which the energy scale is the Rydberg.)

Having said that I'd avoid shops that insisted on selling only in imperial units, I've just been to our favourite butchers, and remembered that they primarily put their prices as 'per lb', though it has to be said that their scales operate in kg/g, and their big board showing prices has both £/kg and £/lb

I'm not going to stop buying from them anyway, but shhh, don't tell the gov't.

Gfamily wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 09, 2022 5:11 pm

Having said that I'd avoid shops that insisted on selling only in imperial units, I've just been to our favourite butchers, and remembered that they primarily put their prices as 'per lb', though it has to be said that their scales operate in kg/g, and their big board showing prices has both £/kg and £/lb

I'm not going to stop buying from them anyway, but shhh, don't tell the gov't.

Er, your butcher doesn't sell only in imperial units, so why be quiet about it?