Class and class relations in the modern UK

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Re: Class and class relations in the modern UK

Post by username » Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:39 pm

P.J. Denyer wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:38 am
username wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:01 am
Yarp there is a moderate up tick; I wouldn't like to speculate too much about the years with no data; the people mostly affected by austerity were the lower decile, who didn't have much wealth at the outset. There's probably data kicking around showing how much wealth was lost and by whom in the financial crisis.
Those at the bottom and middle lost wealth, but there were record pay rises at board level post 2010 and unprecedented increases in the values reported for the Sunday Times rich list. Another big change since then is a massive increase in people working 'self employed' or on zero hour contracts.
Income is a separate, although overlapping with wealth, thing, generally speaking and indicators have indeed been heading in the wrong direction on this imo.

That does not mean the wealthy didn't lose *wealth* in a big way during the financial crisis. Of course the durability of that loss depends on how much is realized. To give an outlier example, Jeff Bezos loses a few billion dollars in wealth in a day when the Amazon stock price drops a few percent. The stock market collapse in 2008 would have sliced into many large portfolios.
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Re: Class and class relations in the modern UK

Post by bolo » Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:49 am

It makes very little difference to Jeff Bezos's quality of life if he loses $2 billion.

It makes a lot more difference to Joe Blow if Joe's retirement savings account loses $100,000.

And it makes a huge difference to John Doe if John goes from having a small savings account and $10,000 in home equity to having a small savings account and minus $200,000 in home equity.

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Re: Class and class relations in the modern UK

Post by username » Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:52 am

bolo wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:49 am
It makes very little difference to Jeff Bezos's quality of life if he loses $2 billion.

It makes a lot more difference to Joe Blow if Joe's retirement savings account loses $100,000.

And it makes a huge difference to John Doe if John goes from having a small savings account and $10,000 in home equity to having a small savings account and minus $200,000 in home equity.
Sure, but that is beside the point (which that it is likely wealthy people also lost considerable wealth in the financial crisis, no more, no less)
The half-truths, repeated, authenticated themselves.

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Re: Class and class relations in the modern UK

Post by Gfamily » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:07 pm

username wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:52 am
bolo wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:49 am
It makes very little difference to Jeff Bezos's quality of life if he loses $2 billion.

It makes a lot more difference to Joe Blow if Joe's retirement savings account loses $100,000.

And it makes a huge difference to John Doe if John goes from having a small savings account and $10,000 in home equity to having a small savings account and minus $200,000 in home equity.
Sure, but that is beside the point (which that it is likely wealthy people also lost considerable wealth in the financial crisis, no more, no less)
Not really - they would only have 'lost' if they were to have had to liquidate their assets. Although the stocks or whatever may have lost immediate value, they still retain them, and have the expectation that they will directly benefit in the recovery from the crisis.

Not relevant to rebutting your argument, but in a wider sense, very significant in exacerbating the inequalities across the wealth divide is that it is very likely that many of their assets will be protected by central bank interventions, which does not apply to people without significant assets in the first place.
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Re: Class and class relations in the modern UK

Post by username » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:34 pm

Gfamily wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:07 pm
username wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:52 am
bolo wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:49 am
It makes very little difference to Jeff Bezos's quality of life if he loses $2 billion.

It makes a lot more difference to Joe Blow if Joe's retirement savings account loses $100,000.

And it makes a huge difference to John Doe if John goes from having a small savings account and $10,000 in home equity to having a small savings account and minus $200,000 in home equity.
Sure, but that is beside the point (which that it is likely wealthy people also lost considerable wealth in the financial crisis, no more, no less)
Not really - they would only have 'lost' if they were to have had to liquidate their assets. Although the stocks or whatever may have lost immediate value, they still retain them, and have the expectation that they will directly benefit in the recovery from the crisis.
Sure, I agree about the realisation factor, but wealth gets totted up as a currency value in data sources like the one used by the beeb piece (although obviously a lost of people did actually lose huge sums of money in . The value of your investments caveat in financial advertising is meaningful. There's little doubt that a huge amount of wealth was lost during the crisis; falling prices indicate some trading at any rate.
Not relevant to rebutting your argument, but in a wider sense, very significant in exacerbating the inequalities across the wealth divide is that it is very likely that many of their assets will be protected by central bank interventions, which does not apply to people without significant assets in the first place.
Asset protection is odd. I admit I don't know what is underwritten by the UK government. Deposit gaurantees in the US were not very high at the time and again do not exist for equities. Istr fdic insurance in 2008 was 125k; deposits above this in a failing bank would theoretically be lost (and hundreds of US banks failed). Bailing out corporations would be the equity rescue side of thing, but this does not always mean the company survives nor that the stick price recovers.
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Re: Class and class relations in the modern UK

Post by jimbob » Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:56 pm

username wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:52 am
bolo wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:49 am
It makes very little difference to Jeff Bezos's quality of life if he loses $2 billion.

It makes a lot more difference to Joe Blow if Joe's retirement savings account loses $100,000.

And it makes a huge difference to John Doe if John goes from having a small savings account and $10,000 in home equity to having a small savings account and minus $200,000 in home equity.
Sure, but that is beside the point (which that it is likely wealthy people also lost considerable wealth in the financial crisis, no more, no less)
If we're talking about the top 0.1%, or whatever - this is not the case:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... nce-crisis
Recession rich: Britain's wealthiest double net worth since crisis
This article is more than 4 years old
Richest 1,000 families control total of £547bn, rising by more than 112% since 2009, and own more than poorest 40% of British households
At the time I recall seeing stories that the wealth growth was faster than the UK's deficit growth over that time.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Class and class relations in the modern UK

Post by username » Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:12 pm

jimbob wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:56 pm
username wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:52 am
bolo wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:49 am
It makes very little difference to Jeff Bezos's quality of life if he loses $2 billion.

It makes a lot more difference to Joe Blow if Joe's retirement savings account loses $100,000.

And it makes a huge difference to John Doe if John goes from having a small savings account and $10,000 in home equity to having a small savings account and minus $200,000 in home equity.
Sure, but that is beside the point (which that it is likely wealthy people also lost considerable wealth in the financial crisis, no more, no less)
If we're talking about the top 0.1%, or whatever - this is not the case:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... nce-crisis
Recession rich: Britain's wealthiest double net worth since crisis
This article is more than 4 years old
Richest 1,000 families control total of £547bn, rising by more than 112% since 2009, and own more than poorest 40% of British households
At the time I recall seeing stories that the wealth growth was faster than the UK's deficit growth over that time.
I was referring to the beeb thing,it's based on the top 1%, but old data as someone pointed out.
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Re: Class and class relations in the modern UK

Post by P.J. Denyer » Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:32 am

bolo wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:49 am
It makes very little difference to Jeff Bezos's quality of life if he loses $2 billion.

It makes a lot more difference to Joe Blow if Joe's retirement savings account loses $100,000.

And it makes a huge difference to John Doe if John goes from having a small savings account and $10,000 in home equity to having a small savings account and minus $200,000 in home equity.
The wealthiest are cushioned in multiple ways, obviously having savings and additional income streams (such as investments) are the most obvious, but also having multiple assets that can be liquidated independently if required (selling your spare Ferrari has fewer long term effects than being forced to sell your family home). But also post 2008, except where companies actually failed job cuts were often due to out sourcing and off shoring and so tended to be lower level staff and middle managers not the board and exec who while their theoretical worth may have dropped still had all their assets and retained their income, where board members were let go they will tend to be much better compensated than the statutory redundancy payment their underlings may get (not to mention extended gardening leave etc).

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Re: Class and class relations in the modern UK

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:48 pm

After the 08 crash a very wealthy friend of mine told me in confidence, "it's affected us quite badly too. We've had to sack our chauffeur."
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Re: Class and class relations in the modern UK

Post by discovolante » Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:52 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:48 pm
After the 08 crash a very wealthy friend of mine told me in confidence, "it's affected us quite badly too. We've had to sack our chauffeur."
That's an interesting angle.
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Re: Class and class relations in the modern UK

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:58 pm

discovolante wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:52 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:48 pm
After the 08 crash a very wealthy friend of mine told me in confidence, "it's affected us quite badly too. We've had to sack our chauffeur."
That's an interesting angle.
It was when I really realised the extent to which most people are living in tiny bubbles.
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Re: Class and class relations in the modern UK

Post by P.J. Denyer » Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:09 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:58 pm
discovolante wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:52 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:48 pm
After the 08 crash a very wealthy friend of mine told me in confidence, "it's affected us quite badly too. We've had to sack our chauffeur."
That's an interesting angle.
It was when I really realised the extent to which most people are living in tiny bubbles.
I had a similar problem when my ex boss was chatting with one of our wealthier customers about the awkwardness when one side of the family won't speak to the other because they're 'in trade'.

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Re: Class and class relations in the modern UK

Post by DrTf » Sun Dec 08, 2019 2:25 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:59 pm
Woodchopper wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:16 pm
If you're interested, statistics on UK household income inequality from 1977 to 2018 can be found here: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... ending2018
It is good - the one on the effects of taxes and benefits on income inequality is even more interesting from a policy perspective IMHO https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... ending2015

Worth noting that it's mainly the top 1% that have seen gains in their share of income, rather than the top 10-20%.

Wealth inequality is also a big part of the story, however, as is the quality of public services.
Perception of what’s a high salary in this country is massively out of kilter with reality.
As an academic on a typical academic salary, I know I’m in the to 10% of earners, despite academics being poorly paid relative to equivalent professionals. But a straw poll over coffee always yields much lower numbers

It’s really worth looking at https://www.gov.uk/government/statisti ... fter-tax to find where you sit, and how your position has changed with time
"The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away"

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Re: Class and class relations in the modern UK

Post by DrTf » Sun Dec 08, 2019 2:46 pm

Tessa K wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:54 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:41 pm
bolo wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:59 pm
And a working class person's dependent children and nonworking spouse are not working class?
Obviously, dependents' class interests are the same as the person(s) on whom they depend. It's amazing what people can misunderstand when they really put their mind to it.
If you're a boomer born at the most recent end of that generation there's a good chance you went to college fully funded and got a better job than your parents.
I’m going to nitpick and say that timeline doesn’t pan out. By the usual definition, I miss being a boomer by a matter of months. I did go to college without paying fees, but I did so alongside a tiny, tiny number of my peers. Less than 10% of school leavers went to University and got a degree in my day (mid 80s) - the vast majority of post-18 qualifications would have been gained through FE colleges and would not have been degree level,and the vast majority of school leavers would not have those qualifications at all. Bear in mind that for most of the previous decade, there was a significant effort to reduce the number of people who couldn’t read, and that while that’s vastly improved, poor literacy is still a problem in the UK for an unacceptably large number Of adults ( https://literacytrust.org.uk/parents-a ... -literacy/

HE provision massively expanded under the Major govt, 1989-1990 ish, but widening participation did not - the primary beneficiaries were middle class women.

So I think the number of people of whom we can say “got a free education and a better job than your parents” is much smaller than you’d think, because by the time that education became genuinely accessible, a) fees were payable, and b) the job market had changed such that a level of education is pretty much essential for bog standard white collar work, because the technical landscape those jobs operate in has increased in complexity. (That’s my theory anyway) either way, boomers had access to free education yes, but a vanishingly small number of working class boomers will have been able to make use of it.
So you may have retained a working class sensibility but you wouldn't be WC any more. Your political interests may well have been changed from your parents' by contact with a wider range of people and ideas too.
This definitely happens, though. But I think this also applies to a small group - people moving to professions like law and medicine , or moving into academia. The latter is especially vulnerable to this because so much of academia irritatingly presents itself still, as entry into a sect rather than paid employment, but that’s a whole other conversation. But since this really only applies to people who do PhDs, that tells you that this too, applies to a teeny number of people.

Edit to add some important negatives :roll:
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Re: Class and class relations in the modern UK

Post by Ken McKenzie » Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:53 am

DrTf wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 2:46 pm
HE provision massively expanded under the Major govt, 1989-1990 ish, but widening participation did not - the primary beneficiaries were middle class women.
tbf, one crucial aspect of WP did as HE was rather more male-dominated before the Major expansion. In 1992, 54% of graduates were men. By 1995, 53% of graduates were women and since then it's been majority women all the way.

Also, Thatcher actually formally kicked off HE expansion as she recognised it was a necessary consequence of her drive to transform the UK economy
DrTf wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 2:46 pm
the job market had changed such that a level of education is pretty much essential for bog standard white collar work, because the technical landscape those jobs operate in has increased in complexity. (That’s my theory anyway)
This does indeed seem to be what has happened, along with many of those jobs migrating out of 'standard white collar work' (insert lengthy exposition about occupational classifications later -ED) and into 'professional' classifications of work.

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Re: Class and class relations in the modern UK

Post by DrTf » Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:01 pm

Ken McKenzie wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:53 am

tbf, one crucial aspect of WP did as HE was rather more male-dominated before the Major expansion. In 1992, 54% of graduates were men. By 1995, 53% of graduates were women and since then it's been majority women all the way.

Also, Thatcher actually formally kicked off HE expansion as she recognised it was a necessary consequence of her drive to transform the UK economy
Ok, I will give you that, since you're nitpicking my nitpick. What I should have added is that widening participation by social class did not - and to be honest, we are still making rather slow progress on that if participation by Polar score, all necessary caveats notwithstanding, are anything to go by.
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Re: Class and class relations in the modern UK

Post by Ken McKenzie » Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:11 pm

DrTf wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:01 pm
What I should have added is that widening participation by social class did not - and to be honest, we are still making rather slow progress on that if participation by Polar score, all necessary caveats notwithstanding, are anything to go by.
Yes, that's very fair. PG is even worse.

Of course, we don't actually have a very good marker for social class anyway. POLAR - based on postcode of domicile - is best for HE students, but has issues where there is rapid change in social mix in an area and where there is significant inequality in small areas, such as many rural areas and certain parts of cities. NS-SEC on the other hand (based on parental occupation) has issues with change in occupational structure, but is better for the population as a whole.

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Re: Class and class relations in the modern UK

Post by DrTf » Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:55 pm

Ken McKenzie wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:11 pm
Yes, that's very fair. PG is even worse.

Of course, we don't actually have a very good marker for social class anyway. POLAR - based on postcode of domicile - is best for HE students, but has issues where there is rapid change in social mix in an area and where there is significant inequality in small areas, such as many rural areas and certain parts of cities. NS-SEC on the other hand (based on parental occupation) has issues with change in occupational structure, but is better for the population as a whole.
PG is atrocious. And I don't know of any mechanism for collecting data on it either - do you know? I've been pushing for years to monitor our PG intake, and every time we try and do summat, we realise that getting the data out of our systems will be really hard.

as for Polar vs NS-SEC vs MEM vs school data..... yeah, I hear you.
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Re: Class and class relations in the modern UK

Post by sheldrake » Fri Dec 20, 2019 3:12 am

Thatcherism convinced lots of people who were definitely economically working class that they were middle class.

If you can't afford to send your children to private schools and you're expecting to be a debt-slave until you're almost retired, you're working class. Owning an Audi on credit doesn't really change that.

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Re: Class and class relations in the modern UK

Post by lpm » Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:41 am

I get what you're saying. But private school isn't a good metric - it was only ever a tiny percentage which would make your middle class tiny. And school fee inflation has been huge recently.

A better metric would be based around security. Savings as protection from an uncertain future and skills that are durable. Thatcher convinced lots of people who were insecure working class without savings/usable wealth that they were middle class.
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Re: Class and class relations in the modern UK

Post by greyspoke » Fri Dec 20, 2019 9:42 am

The sociological term for that is "precarity" I believe lpm.

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Re: Class and class relations in the modern UK

Post by lpm » Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:39 am

It's more than that. The term applies to people who know they are "the precariat", if that's a thing.

I think that what Sheldrake is getting at is that Thatcherism convinced people they were something they weren't. A northern industrial worker on the dole knew he was in a precarious position. But there were a range of people who became convinced they were now in the secure middle class - home ownership (but slave to a mortgage), nice car (on credit), office job (but no job for a lifetime or durable skills).

The effect worsened over time. Fundamentally people believe they are richer than they are. Nobody appreciates the vast amount of savings they need to accumulate to have a decent pension and proper social care till they are 90. Nobody realises we need to devote far more resources to the NHS to cope with the aging population and hence the tax take is too low. Nobody understands that having a valuable home is not the same as usable wealth.

And jobs and skills that appeared to be good for a lifetime no longer are - experienced retail workers and travel agents and council workers and taxi drivers are suddenly finding themselves in a precarious position.

Fundamentally, a huge segment of the population urgently needs to stop getting an Audi on credit and direct their money into saving and paying higher tax to the NHS.
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Re: Class and class relations in the modern UK

Post by P.J. Denyer » Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:49 am

lpm wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:39 am
It's more than that. The term applies to people who know they are "the precariat", if that's a thing.

I think that what Sheldrake is getting at is that Thatcherism convinced people they were something they weren't. A northern industrial worker on the dole knew he was in a precarious position. But there were a range of people who became convinced they were now in the secure middle class - home ownership (but slave to a mortgage), nice car (on credit), office job (but no job for a lifetime or durable skills).

The effect worsened over time. Fundamentally people believe they are richer than they are. Nobody appreciates the vast amount of savings they need to accumulate to have a decent pension and proper social care till they are 90. Nobody realises we need to devote far more resources to the NHS to cope with the aging population and hence the tax take is too low. Nobody understands that having a valuable home is not the same as usable wealth.

And jobs and skills that appeared to be good for a lifetime no longer are - experienced retail workers and travel agents and council workers and taxi drivers are suddenly finding themselves in a precarious position.

Fundamentally, a huge segment of the population urgently needs to stop getting an Audi on credit and direct their money into saving and paying higher tax to the NHS.
FWIW I think there's wisdom in these words. Though I'd add that as well as being more precarious those jobs also don't pay what they did when compared to the cost of living.

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Re: Class and class relations in the modern UK

Post by greyspoke » Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:14 am

Well people knew their position, but having some material wealth and being in a precarious position is better then being skint and being in a precarious position, so what would you do? I am not sure security was an option for many.

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Re: Class and class relations in the modern UK

Post by Chris Preston » Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:19 am

sheldrake wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 3:12 am
Thatcherism convinced lots of people who were definitely economically working class that they were middle class.

If you can't afford to send your children to private schools and you're expecting to be a debt-slave until you're almost retired, you're working class. Owning an Audi on credit doesn't really change that.
bl..dy hell, I am working class. My children didn't go to private school and I am still working when many of my mates from University have retired.

Working class with a couple of million in assets who knew? (although millions aren't what they used to be).
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