Who's next?

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Trinucleus
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Re: Who's next?

Post by Trinucleus » Wed Jul 20, 2022 6:22 pm

Opti wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:54 pm
She at least has a bit of insight. She promised to "hit the ground from day one".
Flat on her face......

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Woodchopper
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Re: Who's next?

Post by Woodchopper » Wed Jul 20, 2022 10:24 pm

Truss addresses the Lib Dem conference: https://twitter.com/stewartmaclean/stat ... 3_sa6_TkLg

There will be much more like it.

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bob sterman
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Re: Who's next?

Post by bob sterman » Thu Jul 21, 2022 5:27 am

EACLucifer wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 5:11 pm
bob sterman wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:27 pm
EACLucifer wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:09 pm


I've seen this meme a few times. What's it actually based on? I note this because I've mostly seen it from people like Cummings, who has some pretty awful views re: conflict at present.
It's based on her very famous speech in which she ranted about cheese imports, and the dangerous and inflammatory public comments she made that could have unnecessarily escalated the conflict with Russia.
But what did she actually say?
I assume you don't mean about the cheese.

On WW3 - I'll see if I can find all the comments but one of the key ones was when she said - as Foreign Secretary - that the UK government would support British people who wanted to travel to the UK to fight against Russia. The context being that these people would often be ex-UK army or even current army quitting to go there.

Liz Truss criticised for backing Britons who wish to fight in Ukraine
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... ght-russia

Followed by...

Ukraine conflict: Russia blames Liz Truss and others for nuclear alert
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60558048

Putin issued nuclear order in response to Liz Truss comments, Kremlin says
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 24839.html

Liz Truss risks recklessly inflaming Ukraine’s war to serve her own ambition
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... tive-power

Russia Blames Liz Truss For Vladimir Putin's Nuclear Weapons Threat
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ ... 0c803c3862

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TimW
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Re: Who's next?

Post by TimW » Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:18 am

Trinucleus wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 6:22 pm
Opti wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:54 pm
She at least has a bit of insight. She promised to "hit the ground from day one".
Flat on her face......
The new Katie Hannaford.

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El Pollo Diablo
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Re: Who's next?

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Thu Jul 21, 2022 8:25 am

Riz Lusst wrote:Some of the portents of doom didn't happen and instead we have actually unleashed new opportunities [after Brexit]."
So... most of the portents of doom did happen?
They loved each other and believed they loved mankind, they fought each other and believed they fought the world.

causan_dux
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Re: Who's next?

Post by causan_dux » Thu Jul 21, 2022 9:04 am

The thematic continuity of the leadership of the United Kingdom's Conservative and Unionist Party, 1997-

14 pints of Shite
The Shite man
Something of the Shite
The Shiny Shite
Brexshite means Brexshite
The Shite

Oh...shite

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EACLucifer
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Re: Who's next?

Post by EACLucifer » Thu Jul 21, 2022 9:05 am

bob sterman wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 5:27 am
EACLucifer wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 5:11 pm
bob sterman wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:27 pm


It's based on her very famous speech in which she ranted about cheese imports, and the dangerous and inflammatory public comments she made that could have unnecessarily escalated the conflict with Russia.
But what did she actually say?
I assume you don't mean about the cheese.

On WW3 - I'll see if I can find all the comments but one of the key ones was when she said - as Foreign Secretary - that the UK government would support British people who wanted to travel to the UK to fight against Russia. The context being that these people would often be ex-UK army or even current army quitting to go there.

Liz Truss criticised for backing Britons who wish to fight in Ukraine
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... ght-russia

Followed by...

Ukraine conflict: Russia blames Liz Truss and others for nuclear alert
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60558048

Putin issued nuclear order in response to Liz Truss comments, Kremlin says
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 24839.html

Liz Truss risks recklessly inflaming Ukraine’s war to serve her own ambition
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... tive-power

Russia Blames Liz Truss For Vladimir Putin's Nuclear Weapons Threat
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ ... 0c803c3862
Oh come off it. Have you paid the slightest attention to Russian media and nuclear threats? They make nuclear threats about absolutely everything. They made nuclear threats when we criticised them for poisoning people in Salisbury. Every time military aid is discussed, the same talking heads are there telling us to "pray for our moss covered queen"* and saying how a Sarmat could destroy the entire country or a Poseidon could swamp us with atomic tidal waves, while failing to acknowledge that a couple of Tridents could destroy every part of Russia they care about, which means they won't do it.

And every time they do this about a bit of military aid, and the aid is then delivered, they back down, and make excuses for backing down. Sending HIMARS was going to be a justification for strikes on Poland, yet when they actually arrived, suddenly it was well actually they are just backfill for Smerch and Uragan and aren't actually better than anything there**. Likewise there were all sorts of threats made to Finland re: Sweden and Finland joining NATO, yet when it was agreed they would, suddenly Russia's position becomes "Finland and Sweden's security arrangements are up to them"

And the alleged order discussed here did not result in any change in posture for Russia's nuclear forces. It was bluster, and Truss's ill-thought out comments were just the excuse for a piece of bluster they were going to do anyway. The problem with Truss's comments were that they were unclear, likely because Truss is an idiot, and that they potentially encouraged current members of the forces to go AWOL, not that it hurt Vladimir Vladimirovich's feelings.

Russia's shown no signs whatsoever of even considering going nuclear. We don't have to constantly self-deter because the khuilo in the Kremlin likes to rattle his sabre.

*Actual quote
**Which isn't true, by the way. Smerch and Uragan have similar range and warhead size, but unlike them, HIMARS and M270 actually hit their targets rather than distributing rockets over a square mile or so

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Trinucleus
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Re: Who's next?

Post by Trinucleus » Thu Jul 21, 2022 9:21 am

So a representative of the party of 'sound money' wants to borrow to fund tax cuts. Almost as stupid as funding tax cuts from one off privatisation windfalls.

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bjn
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Re: Who's next?

Post by bjn » Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:42 am

f.ck. Truss has the hots for Minford’s economics. We are totally screwed.

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Re: Who's next?

Post by tom p » Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:33 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 10:24 pm
Truss addresses the Lib Dem conference: https://twitter.com/stewartmaclean/stat ... 3_sa6_TkLg

There will be much more like it.
Interestingly, she actually appears competent at public speaking there. Perhaps that's 'cos she actually meant what she was saying, unlike now, where she doesn't mean a damn thing & is just saying whatever she thinks will get her moar powah

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Re: Who's next?

Post by tom p » Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:35 pm

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:33 pm
Broadly speaking, we've had (ignoring policy, morals, or impact, and obviously this is all relative and from a general perspective):

- David Cameron - Competent, honorable, likeable
- Theresa May - Halfway competent, honorable, unlikeable
- Boris Johnson - Incompetent, dishonorable, likeable
- Liz Truss - Incompetent, dishonorable, unlikeable

How the f.ck do they do this. On this trend the next Tory leader will be Erdogan.
I think it's a bit much to suggest that Cameron was fully competent. Remember the omnishambles budget? Or the pissing himself negotiations with the EU (which he bragged about) or calling the brexit referendum & giving in to all the brexiter demands for how it should be conducted?
Maybe half-competent 'cos he was able to f.ck the lib-dems in the coalition negotiations

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El Pollo Diablo
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Re: Who's next?

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:42 pm

Fine, I can concede on half-competent, although it's from a relative, general perspective. There's lots of people out there who thought Shiny Dave was just swell. But then you come back to that f.cking referendum and you just want to smash his face in with a spiky mallet.
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Re: Who's next?

Post by tom p » Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:45 pm

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:42 pm
Fine, I can concede on half-competent, although it's from a relative, general perspective. There's lots of people out there who thought Shiny Dave was just swell. But then you come back to that f.cking referendum and you just want to smash his face in with a spiky mallet.
This kind of moderate compromise is something that everyone can get behind, I'm sure

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Re: Who's next?

Post by lpm » Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:55 pm

To be fair to Truss and her cheese and apples and pork gibberish, her reign is going to be good for British gammon. We are going to be dominated by gammon. We are going to be exporting gammonism to the rest of the world.
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temptar
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Re: Who's next?

Post by temptar » Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:56 pm

bjn wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:42 am
f.ck. Truss has the hots for Minford’s economics. We are totally screwed.
From the outside, I don't know why you would think you are not, either which way.

If UK politics is a meritocracy I cannot identify what the governing skill selected for is.

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Re: Who's next?

Post by temptar » Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:04 pm

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:33 pm
Broadly speaking, we've had (ignoring policy, morals, or impact, and obviously this is all relative and from a general perspective):

- David Cameron - Competent, honorable, likeable
- Theresa May - Halfway competent, honorable, unlikeable
- Boris Johnson - Incompetent, dishonorable, likeable
- Liz Truss - Incompetent, dishonorable, unlikeable

How the f.ck do they do this. On this trend the next Tory leader will be Erdogan.
I would not classify Cameron as competent. The mess you are in traces back to one major decision he made, leading to many issues including the pretty dire lack of talent in the current Cabinet. Not only that he implemented that decision spectacularly badly. Both Switzerland and Ireland and SCOTLAND do better jobs on their direct democracy than Cameron did. No contingency planning. Not even a modicum of laying out what Brexit would mean before offering it as an option. We are not talking even half way competent here.

May was more competent in the Home Office but took on a poisoned chalice thanks to Cameron's mess up. In an ideal world her home affairs policies would have seen her voted out.

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Re: Who's next?

Post by temptar » Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:05 pm

lpm wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:55 pm
To be fair to Truss and her cheese and apples and pork gibberish, her reign is going to be good for British gammon. We are going to be dominated by gammon. We are going to be exporting gammonism to the rest of the world.
I doubt it. ROTW will apply massive tariffs on it and no one will want to buy it.

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bjn
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Re: Who's next?

Post by bjn » Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:22 pm

temptar wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:56 pm
bjn wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:42 am
f.ck. Truss has the hots for Minford’s economics. We are totally screwed.
From the outside, I don't know why you would think you are not, either which way.

If UK politics is a meritocracy I cannot identify what the governing skill selected for is.
Ok, I modify my statement to “Even more totally screwed than I thought we would be.”

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Re: Who's next?

Post by tenchboy » Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:43 pm

tom p wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:35 pm
El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:33 pm
Broadly speaking, we've had (ignoring policy, morals, or impact, and obviously this is all relative and from a general perspective):

- David Cameron - Competent, honorable, likeable
- Theresa May - Halfway competent, honorable, unlikeable
- Boris Johnson - Incompetent, dishonorable, likeable
- Liz Truss - Incompetent, dishonorable, unlikeable

How the f.ck do they do this. On this trend the next Tory leader will be Erdogan.
I think it's a bit much to suggest that Cameron was fully competent. Remember the omnishambles budget? Or the pissing himself negotiations with the EU (which he bragged about) or calling the brexit referendum & giving in to all the brexiter demands for how it should be conducted?
Maybe half-competent 'cos he was able to f.ck the lib-dems in the coalition negotiations
I enjoyed the slowly changing, sequential progression: it wouldn't really have worked without the two end points being as they are.

And didn't D.Cammy go to referendum to shut the brexiteers the f.ck up once and for all? - because he didn't beleive the country was so stupid as to actually vote leave?; and when it would come back to stay (as he thought it would) he could then flip it out of the court for good.
His mistake was in underestimating the stupidity of the british people: you can laugh at him for it but it's hard to knock him for having faith in the collective common sense (even if it was misplaced) when just about everyone since has relied on that stupidity to advance their own interests and get where they are today.

Forgive me if I've got it wrong.

TB

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Woodchopper
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Re: Who's next?

Post by Woodchopper » Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:44 pm

temptar wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:56 pm
If UK politics is a meritocracy I cannot identify what the governing skill selected for is.
At this moment, the most important skill is telling about 200 000 well off pensioners exactly what they want to hear.

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Re: Who's next?

Post by philbo » Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:59 pm

temptar wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:56 pm
If UK politics is a meritocracy I cannot identify what the governing skill selected for is.
"Meritocracy" is a word usually used by those in power to give themselves the air of having earned being there.

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Re: Who's next?

Post by Little waster » Thu Jul 21, 2022 5:01 pm

tenchboy wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:43 pm

And didn't D.Cammy go to referendum to shut the brexiteers the f.ck up once and for all? - because he didn't beleive the country was so stupid as to actually vote leave?; and when it would come back to stay (as he thought it would) he could then flip it out of the court for good.
His mistake was in underestimating the stupidity of the british people: you can laugh at him for it but it's hard to knock him for having faith in the collective common sense (even if it was misplaced) when just about everyone since has relied on that stupidity to advance their own interests and get where they are today.
But the counter-argument is he made a hash of the referendum through a number of obvious and crucial mistakes.

1. He never expected there to even to be a referendum, it was just an electoral wheeze to nick a few hundred UKIP voters in some key marginals and put some spurious clear blue water between the Tories and their Coalition partners. He fully expected 2015 to result in another Coalition with a much-shrunken and chastened LD party. He would then buy off the LDs with a promise to ditch the referendum and then pin the blame on them when the ERG objected. Meanwhile he could go back to the Blukip voters and say "look what the mean LDs made me do, now give me a workable majority in 2020 and we'll finish the job, pinkie promise." Ditching the referendum under those circumstances was a "Free Action" for Cameron and the likelihood is the LDs would have been so grateful to get even that they wouldn't have pushed for anything else, in which case Cameron would have had free rein to implement the rest of his manifesto with the un-complaining support of the rump of the LD MPs who had proven loyaler than his own back-benchers. It was a supposed win-win for Cameron, in the end it worked too well for him with the LDs imploding and the Blukippers giving him a full majority. At that point he shat himself as he now had to implement it.

Now that initial mistake lead to the others:-

2. Not putting in the groundwork. With idiocies such as withdrawing from the EPP and the shambles of the EU re-negotiation he had already pump-primed the Eurosceptics while undermining his own credibility in making the pro-EU argument, all compounded by an AWOL Labour Party and a shattered and discredited LD kicking away the other pro-EU supports.

3. Scheduling the referendum for the mid-terms. After 6 years of austerity and in the midst of the usual mid-term blues he essentially pulled down his pants and offered the public his buttocks with "Kick Me" written across it. Unsurprisingly they obliged.

4. The wording of the question. First, it was supposed to be a choice between the "new and improved" re-negotiated deal and leave, but after he had made such a hash of the re-negotiation it was no longer felt even worth making the offer. Then it became a straight choice between Remain and Leave, a choice between Remaining in the known imperfect status quo and whatever personal fantasy Leave you could imagine; at a stroke maximising the Leave vote as old-school Lexiteers, Singapore-on-Thames zealots and the "no one is talking about leaving the Single Market" moderates could all paint in whatever mutually-exclusive sunny upland they wanted onto the same binary outcome. The wording should have been specific on spelling out what Leave actually meant, was it the Norway option, the Swiss option, the Turkish option or the Canada-plus option even if it meant having multiple questions and a run-off. As the May premiership taught us not one of those specific Leave options could ever summon even a plurality of support, only by lumping all of them in together did they scrape together the fabled 52%. Instead we came within hours of the Mauritius-minus option and ended up with the current half-baked deal which is already in crisis, with all the time the Brexiteers disingenuously claiming whatever was on the table at that given moment was the immutable Will of the People chosen with full knowledge of what it entailed.

5. The referendum criteria. They could have put in a say 60% supermajority requirement, or a 4-nation lock or a minimum turnout or a STV-voting model or 16+ voting age or ex-pat voting or EU citizen voting or any of a half-dozen ways to ensure any drastic change to the constitution genuinely reflected a true majority of the people affected, instead we has a 50%+1 winner-takes all on a 72% turn-out of UK-resident-and-citizen-only, one wet Thursday in June.

6. The campaign itself. Which to put it mildly was an utter shambles.

All stupid, all predictable, all Cameron's fault.
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Re: Who's next?

Post by WFJ » Thu Jul 21, 2022 5:21 pm

Little waster wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 5:01 pm
tenchboy wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:43 pm

And didn't D.Cammy go to referendum to shut the brexiteers the f.ck up once and for all? - because he didn't beleive the country was so stupid as to actually vote leave?; and when it would come back to stay (as he thought it would) he could then flip it out of the court for good.
His mistake was in underestimating the stupidity of the british people: you can laugh at him for it but it's hard to knock him for having faith in the collective common sense (even if it was misplaced) when just about everyone since has relied on that stupidity to advance their own interests and get where they are today.
But the counter-argument is he made a hash of the referendum through a number of obvious and crucial mistakes.

1. He never expected there to even to be a referendum, it was just an electoral wheeze to nick a few hundred UKIP voters in some key marginals and put some spurious clear blue water between the Tories and their Coalition partners. He fully expected 2015 to result in another Coalition with a much-shrunken and chastened LD party. He would then buy off the LDs with a promise to ditch the referendum and then pin the blame on them when the ERG objected. Meanwhile he could go back to the Blukip voters and say "look what the mean LDs made me do, now give me a workable majority in 2020 and we'll finish the job, pinkie promise." Ditching the referendum under those circumstances was a "Free Action" for Cameron and the likelihood is the LDs would have been so grateful to get even that they wouldn't have pushed for anything else, in which case Cameron would have had free rein to implement the rest of his manifesto with the un-complaining support of the rump of the LD MPs who had proven loyaler than his own back-benchers. It was a supposed win-win for Cameron, in the end it worked too well for him with the LDs imploding and the Blukippers giving him a full majority. At that point he shat himself as he now had to implement it.

[snip]
The LD's 2010 and 2015 manifestos called for an EU membership referendum.

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Re: Who's next?

Post by WFJ » Thu Jul 21, 2022 5:40 pm

WFJ wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 5:21 pm
The LD's 2010 and 2015 manifestos called for an EU membership referendum.
Thought I should double-check I was actually correct here. The actual wordings are:
2010 wrote: The European Union has evolved significantly since the last public vote on membership over thirty years ago. Liberal Democrats therefore remain committed to an in/out referendum the next time a British government signs up for fundamental change in the relationship between the UK and the EU.
2015 wrote: We will:

[amongst other things] Hold an In/Out referendum when there is next any Treaty change involving a material transfer of sovereignty from the UK to the EU. Liberal Democrats will campaign for the UK to remain in the European Union when that referendum comes.
So not quite a direct call for an immediate referendum, but it doesn't suggest the LDs would have seen dropping a referendum as an important bargaining point in a coalition agreement.

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Re: Who's next?

Post by monkey » Thu Jul 21, 2022 6:17 pm

WFJ wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 5:40 pm
WFJ wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 5:21 pm
The LD's 2010 and 2015 manifestos called for an EU membership referendum.
Thought I should double-check I was actually correct here. The actual wordings are:
2010 wrote: The European Union has evolved significantly since the last public vote on membership over thirty years ago. Liberal Democrats therefore remain committed to an in/out referendum the next time a British government signs up for fundamental change in the relationship between the UK and the EU.
2015 wrote: We will:

[amongst other things] Hold an In/Out referendum when there is next any Treaty change involving a material transfer of sovereignty from the UK to the EU. Liberal Democrats will campaign for the UK to remain in the European Union when that referendum comes.
So not quite a direct call for an immediate referendum, but it doesn't suggest the LDs would have seen dropping a referendum as an important bargaining point in a coalition agreement.
They did vote for the Referendum when it came up in Parliament too. As did Labour (I think their policy was have a referendum on big changes to the EU, but not an in/out).

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