Re: Who's next?
Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2022 6:22 pm
I assume you don't mean about the cheese.EACLucifer wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 5:11 pmBut what did she actually say?bob sterman wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:27 pmIt's based on her very famous speech in which she ranted about cheese imports, and the dangerous and inflammatory public comments she made that could have unnecessarily escalated the conflict with Russia.EACLucifer wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:09 pm
I've seen this meme a few times. What's it actually based on? I note this because I've mostly seen it from people like Cummings, who has some pretty awful views re: conflict at present.
The new Katie Hannaford.
So... most of the portents of doom did happen?Riz Lusst wrote:Some of the portents of doom didn't happen and instead we have actually unleashed new opportunities [after Brexit]."
Oh come off it. Have you paid the slightest attention to Russian media and nuclear threats? They make nuclear threats about absolutely everything. They made nuclear threats when we criticised them for poisoning people in Salisbury. Every time military aid is discussed, the same talking heads are there telling us to "pray for our moss covered queen"* and saying how a Sarmat could destroy the entire country or a Poseidon could swamp us with atomic tidal waves, while failing to acknowledge that a couple of Tridents could destroy every part of Russia they care about, which means they won't do it.bob sterman wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 5:27 amI assume you don't mean about the cheese.EACLucifer wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 5:11 pmBut what did she actually say?bob sterman wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:27 pm
It's based on her very famous speech in which she ranted about cheese imports, and the dangerous and inflammatory public comments she made that could have unnecessarily escalated the conflict with Russia.
On WW3 - I'll see if I can find all the comments but one of the key ones was when she said - as Foreign Secretary - that the UK government would support British people who wanted to travel to the UK to fight against Russia. The context being that these people would often be ex-UK army or even current army quitting to go there.
Liz Truss criticised for backing Britons who wish to fight in Ukraine
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... ght-russia
Followed by...
Ukraine conflict: Russia blames Liz Truss and others for nuclear alert
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60558048
Putin issued nuclear order in response to Liz Truss comments, Kremlin says
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 24839.html
Liz Truss risks recklessly inflaming Ukraine’s war to serve her own ambition
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... tive-power
Russia Blames Liz Truss For Vladimir Putin's Nuclear Weapons Threat
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ ... 0c803c3862
Interestingly, she actually appears competent at public speaking there. Perhaps that's 'cos she actually meant what she was saying, unlike now, where she doesn't mean a damn thing & is just saying whatever she thinks will get her moar powahWoodchopper wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 10:24 pmTruss addresses the Lib Dem conference: https://twitter.com/stewartmaclean/stat ... 3_sa6_TkLg
There will be much more like it.
I think it's a bit much to suggest that Cameron was fully competent. Remember the omnishambles budget? Or the pissing himself negotiations with the EU (which he bragged about) or calling the brexit referendum & giving in to all the brexiter demands for how it should be conducted?El Pollo Diablo wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:33 pmBroadly speaking, we've had (ignoring policy, morals, or impact, and obviously this is all relative and from a general perspective):
- David Cameron - Competent, honorable, likeable
- Theresa May - Halfway competent, honorable, unlikeable
- Boris Johnson - Incompetent, dishonorable, likeable
- Liz Truss - Incompetent, dishonorable, unlikeable
How the f.ck do they do this. On this trend the next Tory leader will be Erdogan.
This kind of moderate compromise is something that everyone can get behind, I'm sureEl Pollo Diablo wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:42 pmFine, I can concede on half-competent, although it's from a relative, general perspective. There's lots of people out there who thought Shiny Dave was just swell. But then you come back to that f.cking referendum and you just want to smash his face in with a spiky mallet.
I would not classify Cameron as competent. The mess you are in traces back to one major decision he made, leading to many issues including the pretty dire lack of talent in the current Cabinet. Not only that he implemented that decision spectacularly badly. Both Switzerland and Ireland and SCOTLAND do better jobs on their direct democracy than Cameron did. No contingency planning. Not even a modicum of laying out what Brexit would mean before offering it as an option. We are not talking even half way competent here.El Pollo Diablo wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:33 pmBroadly speaking, we've had (ignoring policy, morals, or impact, and obviously this is all relative and from a general perspective):
- David Cameron - Competent, honorable, likeable
- Theresa May - Halfway competent, honorable, unlikeable
- Boris Johnson - Incompetent, dishonorable, likeable
- Liz Truss - Incompetent, dishonorable, unlikeable
How the f.ck do they do this. On this trend the next Tory leader will be Erdogan.
I doubt it. ROTW will apply massive tariffs on it and no one will want to buy it.
Ok, I modify my statement to “Even more totally screwed than I thought we would be.”
I enjoyed the slowly changing, sequential progression: it wouldn't really have worked without the two end points being as they are.tom p wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:35 pmI think it's a bit much to suggest that Cameron was fully competent. Remember the omnishambles budget? Or the pissing himself negotiations with the EU (which he bragged about) or calling the brexit referendum & giving in to all the brexiter demands for how it should be conducted?El Pollo Diablo wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:33 pmBroadly speaking, we've had (ignoring policy, morals, or impact, and obviously this is all relative and from a general perspective):
- David Cameron - Competent, honorable, likeable
- Theresa May - Halfway competent, honorable, unlikeable
- Boris Johnson - Incompetent, dishonorable, likeable
- Liz Truss - Incompetent, dishonorable, unlikeable
How the f.ck do they do this. On this trend the next Tory leader will be Erdogan.
Maybe half-competent 'cos he was able to f.ck the lib-dems in the coalition negotiations
But the counter-argument is he made a hash of the referendum through a number of obvious and crucial mistakes.tenchboy wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:43 pm
And didn't D.Cammy go to referendum to shut the brexiteers the f.ck up once and for all? - because he didn't beleive the country was so stupid as to actually vote leave?; and when it would come back to stay (as he thought it would) he could then flip it out of the court for good.
His mistake was in underestimating the stupidity of the british people: you can laugh at him for it but it's hard to knock him for having faith in the collective common sense (even if it was misplaced) when just about everyone since has relied on that stupidity to advance their own interests and get where they are today.
The LD's 2010 and 2015 manifestos called for an EU membership referendum.Little waster wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 5:01 pmBut the counter-argument is he made a hash of the referendum through a number of obvious and crucial mistakes.tenchboy wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:43 pm
And didn't D.Cammy go to referendum to shut the brexiteers the f.ck up once and for all? - because he didn't beleive the country was so stupid as to actually vote leave?; and when it would come back to stay (as he thought it would) he could then flip it out of the court for good.
His mistake was in underestimating the stupidity of the british people: you can laugh at him for it but it's hard to knock him for having faith in the collective common sense (even if it was misplaced) when just about everyone since has relied on that stupidity to advance their own interests and get where they are today.
1. He never expected there to even to be a referendum, it was just an electoral wheeze to nick a few hundred UKIP voters in some key marginals and put some spurious clear blue water between the Tories and their Coalition partners. He fully expected 2015 to result in another Coalition with a much-shrunken and chastened LD party. He would then buy off the LDs with a promise to ditch the referendum and then pin the blame on them when the ERG objected. Meanwhile he could go back to the Blukip voters and say "look what the mean LDs made me do, now give me a workable majority in 2020 and we'll finish the job, pinkie promise." Ditching the referendum under those circumstances was a "Free Action" for Cameron and the likelihood is the LDs would have been so grateful to get even that they wouldn't have pushed for anything else, in which case Cameron would have had free rein to implement the rest of his manifesto with the un-complaining support of the rump of the LD MPs who had proven loyaler than his own back-benchers. It was a supposed win-win for Cameron, in the end it worked too well for him with the LDs imploding and the Blukippers giving him a full majority. At that point he shat himself as he now had to implement it.
[snip]
Thought I should double-check I was actually correct here. The actual wordings are:
2010 wrote: The European Union has evolved significantly since the last public vote on membership over thirty years ago. Liberal Democrats therefore remain committed to an in/out referendum the next time a British government signs up for fundamental change in the relationship between the UK and the EU.
So not quite a direct call for an immediate referendum, but it doesn't suggest the LDs would have seen dropping a referendum as an important bargaining point in a coalition agreement.2015 wrote: We will:
[amongst other things] Hold an In/Out referendum when there is next any Treaty change involving a material transfer of sovereignty from the UK to the EU. Liberal Democrats will campaign for the UK to remain in the European Union when that referendum comes.
They did vote for the Referendum when it came up in Parliament too. As did Labour (I think their policy was have a referendum on big changes to the EU, but not an in/out).WFJ wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 5:40 pmThought I should double-check I was actually correct here. The actual wordings are:
2010 wrote: The European Union has evolved significantly since the last public vote on membership over thirty years ago. Liberal Democrats therefore remain committed to an in/out referendum the next time a British government signs up for fundamental change in the relationship between the UK and the EU.So not quite a direct call for an immediate referendum, but it doesn't suggest the LDs would have seen dropping a referendum as an important bargaining point in a coalition agreement.2015 wrote: We will:
[amongst other things] Hold an In/Out referendum when there is next any Treaty change involving a material transfer of sovereignty from the UK to the EU. Liberal Democrats will campaign for the UK to remain in the European Union when that referendum comes.