Scrutable

plodder wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 12, 2022 8:58 am

tom p wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 12, 2022 8:40 am

Except tories do take that line. They make that claim quite often, because they prioritise gesture politics over doing something for people. It's the same reason Patel, Sunak & Zahawi were given top jobs.

Saying they got their jobs because of gesture politics is walking on pretty thin ice. Try and be careful that you're not meeting the racists round the back of the argument. Once you screen out remainers, idiots and hopeless liggers in the ranks of Tory MPs it's clear that they're in their roles due to some form of twisted Tory merit that has very little to do with their ethnicity.

Their brexityness was the most important qualifying factor, no doubt; however, whilst Sunak has been a typical tory chancellor, and his education and work history were the sort of things tories see as perfect for such a job, nobody could say the same for Zahawi or Patel.

In case you've forgotten, Patel had to 'resign' under May because she had had 14 unofficial meetings with Israel. Meetings which she lied about and even lied that Johnson, who was Foreign Sec at the time knew about.
That would be disqualifying from future employment as a cabinet minister, especially under the bloke she tried to drop in it. Now, we know that Johnson likes an incompetent, but he also prioritises image above everything, and the only reason you'd touch such a scandal-tarred failure as Patel is if there was some compelling image reason, for example her skin tone.

tom p wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 11, 2022 12:23 pm

bagpuss wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 11, 2022 11:08 am

El Pollo Diablo wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 11, 2022 10:38 am

What you say is true, but it's also a source of shame for Labour that it's never elected a woman as leader. Gesture politics does still make a difference. It provides confidence in what Labour says it wants to do.

And also, hello, but who the f.ck says that electing a woman as leader would be gesture politics? It could just be electing the best person for the job*.

[/rant]

*Yeah, I know, like that's likely in British politics

You're right - it should be; I was talking about the tory talking point of 'we've had 2 female leaders - we're the party that actually care about women' -
that's gesture politics in my view.

Fair enough and on re-reading I see that's clear.

tom p wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 11, 2022 12:23 pm

Spiking that gun by having a female leader for the sake of it would also be gesture politics. Especially as in Labour's case it was only against Starmer that there were any decent female candidates since 1994 (Cooper, who stood against Corbyn, would have been a very good leader; but her pitch was basically a continuation of Osborne's economic viciousness& so she deserved to lose that election)

Yes, I totally agree that having a female leader for the sake of it is a sh.t idea. It's pretty dismal there are a number of excellent women Labour MPs some of whom I'm sure would make great party leaders. Why they don't rise to the top is probably a very complicated mix of all sorts of reasons, but it would be great if the Labour party had a hard look at themselves and figured out and addressed at least some of the reasons. Then in a fairly short space of time the question of gesture politics would no longer arise as there'd be a decent leader who just happened to be female. In the meantime, however, I'd much prefer a party that had never had an elected female leader but had a track record of doing stuff towards equality, versus one that had had more than one female leader but had less good of a record and also still harboured a bunch of utter dicks for whom misogyny, sexual harassment and appalling behaviour towards women appear to be the norm.

tom p wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 12, 2022 8:45 am

Millennie Al wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 12, 2022 3:16 am

tom p wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 11, 2022 9:20 am

Actually doing something about sexism in the workplace & society is better than having a figurehead.
You're prioritising gesture politics over actual implementation of useful policies.

If you think Margaret Thatcher (or, indeed, Theresa May) was a mere figurehead, you don't know much about British politics. You may not like her policies, but the policies were clearly her own choice.

I didn't mean a figurehead who didn't have her own policies; but I used a suboptimal word - they are, in reality, more figleaf than figurehead.

Your argument, which is nothing but the fatuous tory one (quelle surprise) is that labour aren't the party who help women 'cos they have never had a female leader. That argument was dead in the water by the mid-80s, once Thatcher's policies were clear to all & was then reinforced with may as PM.
It is an entirely vacuous argument, as befits your general MO.

Let's remember, too, that Thatcher not only did nothing to help other women succeed but was very outspoken in her attitude that women should receive no such help and should rise to the top through their own merit - never seeming to care that in most areas of life this meant that women had to be not just better than but far far better than the men they were up against.

Anyway, this is rather derailing the thread that's supposed to be about racism not other -isms, but I wanted to acknowledge tom p's reply to me and then couldn't leave without flinging in my twopennorth on Maggie T as well.

The Thatcher thing might help us get at the question.

Obviously loads of Tories are misogynists - even more so in the 70s and 80s. What was the marginal hit to Tory votes/seats for having a woman?

tom p wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 12, 2022 10:38 am

plodder wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 12, 2022 8:58 am

tom p wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 12, 2022 8:40 am

Except tories do take that line. They make that claim quite often, because they prioritise gesture politics over doing something for people. It's the same reason Patel, Sunak & Zahawi were given top jobs.

Saying they got their jobs because of gesture politics is walking on pretty thin ice. Try and be careful that you're not meeting the racists round the back of the argument. Once you screen out remainers, idiots and hopeless liggers in the ranks of Tory MPs it's clear that they're in their roles due to some form of twisted Tory merit that has very little to do with their ethnicity.

Their brexityness was the most important qualifying factor, no doubt; however, whilst Sunak has been a typical tory chancellor, and his education and work history were the sort of things tories see as perfect for such a job, nobody could say the same for Zahawi or Patel.

In case you've forgotten, Patel had to 'resign' under May because she had had 14 unofficial meetings with Israel. Meetings which she lied about and even lied that Johnson, who was Foreign Sec at the time knew about.
That would be disqualifying from future employment as a cabinet minister, especially under the bloke she tried to drop in it. Now, we know that Johnson likes an incompetent, but he also prioritises image above everything, and the only reason you'd touch such a scandal-tarred failure as Patel is if there was some compelling image reason, for example her skin tone.

You can slide from Tories in general to Johnson in particular if it makes things easier. Patel is popular amongst Tories for her clear stance on immigration and determination to control it and her perceived insight into what matters to ordinary people. This is why she's had such longevity and it's clear she's a very able politician especially when compared to the massed ranks of sad sacks in parliament. Her loyalty to Johnson, her ability to be seen to getting things done and her skills with the media are far, far more important than her race, and I'm surprised you'd dig in on this - it's not a good look.

To be fair to Labour, they've only had 3 real leadership chances in the last 25 years, following the Blair-Brown era. Millliband, Corbyn and Starmer.

This is the Tories 7th. Hague, IDS, Howard, Cameron, May, Johnson and X.

So you could argue the Conservatives elect more male leaders than Labour.

That's a logical process of which Oliver Dowden would be proud

Woodchopper wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 12, 2022 8:01 am

The Tory party likes posh people, and it likes self-made ‘strivers’. For example, where Sunsk went to school might be more important to some party members than what he looks like.

Might depend on which bit of the country you're talking about. There was an anonymous northern Tory MP who was quoted by Max Hastings in the Graun: “Given a choice of two leadership candidates, our local constituency members will never vote for a person of colour.”

(This sounds like the kind of constituency I'd recognise, but tbf I am in West Yorkshire.)

jdc wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 12, 2022 1:14 pm

Woodchopper wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 12, 2022 8:01 am

The Tory party likes posh people, and it likes self-made ‘strivers’. For example, where Sunsk went to school might be more important to some party members than what he looks like.

Might depend on which bit of the country you're talking about. There was an anonymous northern Tory MP who was quoted by Max Hastings in the Graun: “Given a choice of two leadership candidates, our local constituency members will never vote for a person of colour.”

(This sounds like the kind of constituency I'd recognise, but tbf I am in West Yorkshire.)

Certainly, there are definitely some like that. But on the other hand I assume that it isn’t the case that all the people who support Sunak don’t have any prejudices.

Woodchopper wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 12, 2022 1:28 pm

jdc wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 12, 2022 1:14 pm

Woodchopper wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 12, 2022 8:01 am

The Tory party likes posh people, and it likes self-made ‘strivers’. For example, where Sunsk went to school might be more important to some party members than what he looks like.

Might depend on which bit of the country you're talking about. There was an anonymous northern Tory MP who was quoted by Max Hastings in the Graun: “Given a choice of two leadership candidates, our local constituency members will never vote for a person of colour.”

(This sounds like the kind of constituency I'd recognise, but tbf I am in West Yorkshire.)

Certainly, there are definitely some like that. But on the other hand I assume that it isn’t the case that all the people who support Sunak don’t have any prejudices.

I think we might agree.

I think there are different types of Tory racist but I'm not at all familiar with the Tory racists in other parts of the country; I'm finding it hard to guess how many of them will prioritise racism over other factors. (Obv going to be fewer in parts of the country that aren't Lancs or Yorks though.)

See, I dunno - your standard Lancs/Yorks racist is more working class, I reckon, the sort of people who grew up on council estates and twenty years ago were involved in the rioting that happened back then. I'd be surprised if many of those were in the Conservative party as members now. And there's been twenty years since with people having the chance to get more used to a lot of subcontinental immigration to those areas, so perhaps (perhaps) there's a little more tolerance than once upon a time, at least in the Conservative party*?

I reckon you'll end up with more Tory racism in parts of the country where there are fewer people of colour - Cornwall, Lincolnshire, etc. Be good to see some stats though



*Obviously, Azeem Rafiq might scoff at that suggestion, I guess

El Pollo Diablo wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 12, 2022 3:19 pm

See, I dunno - your standard Lancs/Yorks racist is more working class, I reckon, the sort of people who grew up on council estates and twenty years ago were involved in the rioting that happened back then. I'd be surprised if many of those were in the Conservative party as members now.

Nah, the old f.ck racists round here would drink in the rugby club, forces club, and Con club. Probably the bar at Headingley if they ventured further afield

I can remember a group of them who were ties, blazers, and bigotry all round. I've served them drinks, listened to their b.llsh.t, and occasionally argued with them. I know their names, their politics, what they did for a living, and which grammar school they went to. I'm not saying all local Tory members are middle class racists, just that a large proportion of the ones I know are.

There's plenty of racists in every demographic in that constituency and I'd be surprised if constituencies in Lancs with similar demographics were much different. And there are plenty of other areas I'd expect to be full of daft racists, but I doubt you'll find anywhere in the country more racist than Yorks/Lancs.

jdc wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 12, 2022 9:39 pm

El Pollo Diablo wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 12, 2022 3:19 pm

See, I dunno - your standard Lancs/Yorks racist is more working class, I reckon, the sort of people who grew up on council estates and twenty years ago were involved in the rioting that happened back then. I'd be surprised if many of those were in the Conservative party as members now.

Nah, the old f.ck racists round here would drink in the rugby club, forces club, and Con club. Probably the bar at Headingley if they ventured further afield

I can remember a group of them who were ties, blazers, and bigotry all round. I've served them drinks, listened to their b.llsh.t, and occasionally argued with them. I know their names, their politics, what they did for a living, and which grammar school they went to. I'm not saying all local Tory members are middle class racists, just that a large proportion of the ones I know are.

There's plenty of racists in every demographic in that constituency and I'd be surprised if constituencies in Lancs with similar demographics were much different. And there are plenty of other areas I'd expect to be full of daft racists, but I doubt you'll find anywhere in the country more racist than Yorks/Lancs.

You've clearly never lived in Lincolnshire, then.

Membership polls have Mordaunt and Truss beating everyone else. So while Tory members may well be racist, sexism does not look like a huge problem.

EACLucifer wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 13, 2022 6:06 am

jdc wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 12, 2022 9:39 pm

El Pollo Diablo wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 12, 2022 3:19 pm

See, I dunno - your standard Lancs/Yorks racist is more working class, I reckon, the sort of people who grew up on council estates and twenty years ago were involved in the rioting that happened back then. I'd be surprised if many of those were in the Conservative party as members now.

Nah, the old f.ck racists round here would drink in the rugby club, forces club, and Con club. Probably the bar at Headingley if they ventured further afield

I can remember a group of them who were ties, blazers, and bigotry all round. I've served them drinks, listened to their b.llsh.t, and occasionally argued with them. I know their names, their politics, what they did for a living, and which grammar school they went to. I'm not saying all local Tory members are middle class racists, just that a large proportion of the ones I know are.

There's plenty of racists in every demographic in that constituency and I'd be surprised if constituencies in Lancs with similar demographics were much different. And there are plenty of other areas I'd expect to be full of daft racists, but I doubt you'll find anywhere in the country more racist than Yorks/Lancs.

You've clearly never lived in Lincolnshire, then.

Oh, hey, a defensive Yorkshireman.

How many BNP candidates have been elected by the voters of Lincolnshire?

Is there a LIncs equivalent of The Yorkshire Infidels?

Do half of the referrals to Prevent in Lincs involve far right extremists?

Do the following have a presence in Lincs? EDL, BM, National Action, National Front.

How many racist organisations have been founded there? (Bradford was the birthplace of the British Campaign to Stop Immigration.)

Following a poll of party members (not parliamentarians) :

Sky News site wrote: Asked to select their favourite replacement, Ms Mordaunt comes first amongst Tory members with 27% of votes. Kemi Badenoch comes second with 15% while Mr Sunak and Ms Truss are tied on third place with 13%.

- from under here: https://news.sky.com/story/tory-leaders ... s-12593360

Brightonian wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 13, 2022 7:34 pm

Following a poll of party members (not parliamentarians) :

Sky News site wrote: Asked to select their favourite replacement, Ms Mordaunt comes first amongst Tory members with 27% of votes. Kemi Badenoch comes second with 15% while Mr Sunak and Ms Truss are tied on third place with 13%.

- from under here: https://news.sky.com/story/tory-leaders ... s-12593360

Is that because of things like this: https://conservativehome.com/2020/12/29 ... ce-theory/ or something else?

jdc wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 13, 2022 7:11 pm

EACLucifer wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 13, 2022 6:06 am

jdc wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 12, 2022 9:39 pm

Nah, the old f.ck racists round here would drink in the rugby club, forces club, and Con club. Probably the bar at Headingley if they ventured further afield

I can remember a group of them who were ties, blazers, and bigotry all round. I've served them drinks, listened to their b.llsh.t, and occasionally argued with them. I know their names, their politics, what they did for a living, and which grammar school they went to. I'm not saying all local Tory members are middle class racists, just that a large proportion of the ones I know are.

There's plenty of racists in every demographic in that constituency and I'd be surprised if constituencies in Lancs with similar demographics were much different. And there are plenty of other areas I'd expect to be full of daft racists, but I doubt you'll find anywhere in the country more racist than Yorks/Lancs.

You've clearly never lived in Lincolnshire, then.

Oh, hey, a defensive Yorkshireman.

How many BNP candidates have been elected by the voters of Lincolnshire?

Is there a LIncs equivalent of The Yorkshire Infidels?

Do half of the referrals to Prevent in Lincs involve far right extremists?

Do the following have a presence in Lincs? EDL, BM, National Action, National Front.

How many racist organisations have been founded there? (Bradford was the birthplace of the British Campaign to Stop Immigration.)

Wrong way round. I grew up in Linconlshire.

Masterful promotion of conservatism by the tories really.
7 minorities and women candidates yet the middle aged cis het white man is the only one you’d piss on if they were on forr.

Anecdote from colleague reporting his elderly dad's voting intentions as a party member: can't vote for Sunak as "he might be a Muslim".

Wow, racist and islamophobic. I appreciate they often come as a package but he's neatly separated the two there.

noggins wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 14, 2022 7:07 am

Masterful promotion of conservatism by the tories really.
7 minorities and women candidates yet the middle aged cis het white man is the only one you’d piss on if they were on forr.

Yebbut, once you've taken out the ones amongst them that are so swivel-eyed* that even the other tories notice; and then the ones with the stupid names; the only real contender, regardless of stated aims & policies cos no-one believes a word they say anymore - and who thus wouldn't be an embarrassment when she attends a big foreign confo and stands up and says hello I'm the uk pri minister, is let's face it, the people's favourite: P.Moddy.

El Pollo Diablo wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 21, 2022 10:53 am

Wow, racist and islamophobic. I appreciate they often come as a package but he's neatly separated the two there.

Has he, though? I kinda interpreted that as lumping all those brown people into one group.

(OK, so when I was a kid it did take a while to dawn on me that the Asian girls who cut their hair were Hindu and the ones that didn't were Sikh, but even as clueless as I was I did eventually notice...)

I was actually checking in to see what yous all thought of the sorry two candidates we have left, but perhaps the lack of activity indicates everyone is as depressed over the pitifulness of the choice as I am. Unless there's another thread somewhere I've missed?

I reckon he has. Sunak is a Hindu. "He might be a Muslim" (and therefore he can't vote for him) says two separate things: his dark skin means he might be lying about his religion (racism), and if that religion is Islam then he shouldn't be leader (Islamophobia).

Ah. I was imagining complete, and perhaps wilful, ignorance of the differences not 'he might be lying about it'.

Which has been demonstrated isn't something politicians can get away with... Well, not forever, anyway.

The Galatic Scriptwriters have decided to rerun this experiment.

On the assumption Sunak is still brown, I predict the same outcome: he loses to a blonde.