Young people and anxiety

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plodder
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Young people and anxiety

Post by plodder » Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:28 pm

Conversations around things like mental health, trigger warnings, anxiety are far more common than they used to be, and of course there are some positives to draw from this.

But as a middle aged old git it feels like younger people are floored by stuff (or worried about being floored by stuff) that perhaps they ought to be more resilient towards. Example - I've just sat through a wellbeing moment at work where a guy in his 20s has asked that our generic health and safety briefings come with a trigger warning that the briefing may contain material suitable for mature audiences.

I'm just a bit thinking this is too babyish for work. Someone talk me round please.

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Re: Young people and anxiety

Post by IvanV » Tue Jul 12, 2022 3:56 pm

The world is more challenging for young people than it was in the time that the now middle aged were growing up. The world was a much simpler place when we grew up.

It is not helped by the fact that we parents shelter young people to a far greater extent than we were sheltered in our own growing up, so they just don't get to face the range of challenges that we faced.

When you get a wider incidence of mental health problems, you have to ask to what extent they just weren't diagnosed in the past. Children were generally punished for their non-compliances, rather than anyone thinking whether there might be a reason why they couldn't face going to school or kicked up merry hell when they got there, that might be addressed.

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Re: Young people and anxiety

Post by dyqik » Tue Jul 12, 2022 4:34 pm

plodder wrote:
Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:28 pm
Conversations around things like mental health, trigger warnings, anxiety are far more common than they used to be, and of course there are some positives to draw from this.

But as a middle aged old git it feels like younger people are floored by stuff (or worried about being floored by stuff) that perhaps they ought to be more resilient towards. Example - I've just sat through a wellbeing moment at work where a guy in his 20s has asked that our generic health and safety briefings come with a trigger warning that the briefing may contain material suitable for mature audiences.

I'm just a bit thinking this is too babyish for work. Someone talk me round please.
It's not too babyish for work. Health and Safety trainings do not need to show graphic injuries to be effective, and you have no idea what trauma any particular new employee has experienced before.

It's not that young people are more sensitive than before, it's that people are more aware of how many people suffered in silence before, and are more willing to admit that how things used to be done excluded and harmed people.

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Re: Young people and anxiety

Post by plodder » Wed Jul 13, 2022 9:49 am

I understand this perspective, however this wasn't about graphic images, this was in relation to a discussion on mental health and how if it is unrecognised it can lead to suicide. This is creating a gordian knot as to how we talk about things and I'm not sure how to practically solve the problem.

What I think you're saying is that anxiety has always been a huge problem but it has only recently been identified as such, therefore there's no increase in anxiety. But cultural trends are also a thing and I don't know how to unpick greater susceptibility to anxiety from greater reporting of anxiety.

What I do know is that younger people talk about anxiety a lot, to the point where I'm getting anxious that they're overly anxious about being anxious.

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Re: Young people and anxiety

Post by discovolante » Wed Jul 13, 2022 9:54 am

It's just the hegelian dialectic at work, it'll all work out for the best in the end.
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Re: Young people and anxiety

Post by Fishnut » Wed Jul 13, 2022 10:00 am

We are killing our planet, and no-one in a position of power cares enough to do anything about it. We have f.cked our economy, costs of living are rising rapidly and salaries are nowhere near matching that rise. Many young people can barely afford to support themselves, let along save enough to own a home, or raise kids. Pensions are becoming much less generous meaning even if you reach retirement age (which keeps going up) it's uncertain whether you'll be able to afford to retire. Honestly, I'd be amazed if young people weren't anxious. I
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Re: Young people and anxiety

Post by Grumble » Wed Jul 13, 2022 10:03 am

Young people talk about being anxious, older anxious people go to alternative medicine wellness conferences.
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Re: Young people and anxiety

Post by plodder » Wed Jul 13, 2022 10:06 am

Fishnut wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 10:00 am
We are killing our planet, and no-one in a position of power cares enough to do anything about it. We have f.cked our economy, costs of living are rising rapidly and salaries are nowhere near matching that rise. Many young people can barely afford to support themselves, let along save enough to own a home, or raise kids. Pensions are becoming much less generous meaning even if you reach retirement age (which keeps going up) it's uncertain whether you'll be able to afford to retire. Honestly, I'd be amazed if young people weren't anxious. I
On a generational level the Xers also had their fair share of existential threat to deal with, as did Boomers.

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Re: Young people and anxiety

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Wed Jul 13, 2022 10:21 am

I mean, my nan was absolutely f.cking terrified about nuclear war. In the 60s during the Cuban missile crisis, she would wait anxiously by the door for the newspaper to delivered to discover whether annihilation was imminent or not. That anxiety fed through pretty much to the rest of her life thereafter, and obviously WW2 had knocked her for six in the first place, living as she did in London through the Blitz.

My mum ended up on beta-blockers in the 80s after getting anxiety, and there's bits of it in the rest of my family as well (I have, thankfully, been spared anything myself as yet). At both those points above, neither my nan nor my mum were in work, and so there wasn't any real exposure to other people. Also not available was any kind of social media, or any culture where discussing it was possible. My dad didn't want my mum even to get treated for it, though (thankfully) she saw it as any other medical condition and refused to back down.

So, I think there's several factors. Firstly, anxiety has always been with us. Secondly, the culture around admitting it has been very suppressive until now - men would never (and still often fail to) admit to it, and women weren't (and still often fail to be) listened to about it. Thirdly, there weren't many environments in which people could listen to it - having a voice in the way anyone now can was nigh on impossible back in the day, unless you were famous. Now, with social media, people can make much more of a thing about it. Fourthly, with much higher presence of women in the workplace (and honestly I think women should get most of the credit here), cultures have shifted enough that discussion of mental health is much more open and possible than it's ever been before, and people feel more confident raising issues about what makes them or others anxious.

That's quite aside from whether there's any bigger drives of anxiety in the first place - is climate change a more existential driver of anxiety than the prospect of nuclear war? I don't know, honestly.

Now, that's not to say there isn't a state where this stuff goes too far, but to me it seems like getting where we are now is generally a good thing.
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Re: Young people and anxiety

Post by Opti » Wed Jul 13, 2022 10:45 am

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 10:21 am
I mean, my nan was absolutely f.cking terrified about nuclear war. In the 60s during the Cuban missile crisis, she would wait anxiously by the door for the newspaper to delivered to discover whether annihilation was imminent or not. That anxiety fed through pretty much to the rest of her life thereafter, and obviously WW2 had knocked her for six in the first place, living as she did in London through the Blitz.

My mum ended up on beta-blockers in the 80s after getting anxiety, and there's bits of it in the rest of my family as well (I have, thankfully, been spared anything myself as yet). At both those points above, neither my nan nor my mum were in work, and so there wasn't any real exposure to other people. Also not available was any kind of social media, or any culture where discussing it was possible. My dad didn't want my mum even to get treated for it, though (thankfully) she saw it as any other medical condition and refused to back down.

So, I think there's several factors. Firstly, anxiety has always been with us. Secondly, the culture around admitting it has been very suppressive until now - men would never (and still often fail to) admit to it, and women weren't (and still often fail to be) listened to about it. Thirdly, there weren't many environments in which people could listen to it - having a voice in the way anyone now can was nigh on impossible back in the day, unless you were famous. Now, with social media, people can make much more of a thing about it. Fourthly, with much higher presence of women in the workplace (and honestly I think women should get most of the credit here), cultures have shifted enough that discussion of mental health is much more open and possible than it's ever been before, and people feel more confident raising issues about what makes them or others anxious.

That's quite aside from whether there's any bigger drives of anxiety in the first place - is climate change a more existential driver of anxiety than the prospect of nuclear war? I don't know, honestly.

Now, that's not to say there isn't a state where this stuff goes too far, but to me it seems like getting where we are now is generally a good thing.
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Re: Young people and anxiety

Post by plodder » Wed Jul 13, 2022 10:56 am

Opti wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 10:45 am
El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 10:21 am
I mean, my nan was absolutely f.cking terrified about nuclear war. In the 60s during the Cuban missile crisis, she would wait anxiously by the door for the newspaper to delivered to discover whether annihilation was imminent or not. That anxiety fed through pretty much to the rest of her life thereafter, and obviously WW2 had knocked her for six in the first place, living as she did in London through the Blitz.

My mum ended up on beta-blockers in the 80s after getting anxiety, and there's bits of it in the rest of my family as well (I have, thankfully, been spared anything myself as yet). At both those points above, neither my nan nor my mum were in work, and so there wasn't any real exposure to other people. Also not available was any kind of social media, or any culture where discussing it was possible. My dad didn't want my mum even to get treated for it, though (thankfully) she saw it as any other medical condition and refused to back down.

So, I think there's several factors. Firstly, anxiety has always been with us. Secondly, the culture around admitting it has been very suppressive until now - men would never (and still often fail to) admit to it, and women weren't (and still often fail to be) listened to about it. Thirdly, there weren't many environments in which people could listen to it - having a voice in the way anyone now can was nigh on impossible back in the day, unless you were famous. Now, with social media, people can make much more of a thing about it. Fourthly, with much higher presence of women in the workplace (and honestly I think women should get most of the credit here), cultures have shifted enough that discussion of mental health is much more open and possible than it's ever been before, and people feel more confident raising issues about what makes them or others anxious.

That's quite aside from whether there's any bigger drives of anxiety in the first place - is climate change a more existential driver of anxiety than the prospect of nuclear war? I don't know, honestly.

Now, that's not to say there isn't a state where this stuff goes too far, but to me it seems like getting where we are now is generally a good thing.
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Re: Young people and anxiety

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Jul 13, 2022 11:43 am

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 10:21 am
That's quite aside from whether there's any bigger drives of anxiety in the first place - is climate change a more existential driver of anxiety than the prospect of nuclear war? I don't know, honestly.
Well, climate change and biodiversity collapse are already underway, visibly, whereas nuclear war never actually happened. It's more like being in the opening salvos of a global war, knowing the shelling is going to ramp up for decades.

There's also a sense that it can be stopped using straightforward, quite boring policies based on solid scientific advice, rather than being the stochastic outcome of a handful of vicious badly-adjusted men threatening each other.

The combination of evident impacts plus an obvious but avoided route away from catastrophe probably both combine to increase anxiety about those issues.
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Re: Young people and anxiety

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Jul 13, 2022 11:46 am

There's plenty of stats showing a genuine increase in anxiety in young people, btw.

Part of the explanation seems to be the commodification of attention and emotional engagement by big tech companies, especially for the in younger generations who were manipulated throughout their development by algorithms.
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Re: Young people and anxiety

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Jul 13, 2022 11:48 am

As for the OP, whether it's a reasonable reaction depends entirely on what's in your briefings ;) Do you show a PowerPoint of horrible wounds or something?
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Re: Young people and anxiety

Post by plodder » Wed Jul 13, 2022 11:54 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 11:43 am
The combination of evident impacts plus an obvious but avoided route away from catastrophe probably both combine to increase anxiety about those issues.
I guess my question is "is there more reported anxiety or more actual anxiety?"

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Re: Young people and anxiety

Post by lpm » Wed Jul 13, 2022 12:02 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 10:00 am
We are killing our planet, and no-one in a position of power cares enough to do anything about it. We have f.cked our economy, costs of living are rising rapidly and salaries are nowhere near matching that rise. Many young people can barely afford to support themselves, let along save enough to own a home, or raise kids. Pensions are becoming much less generous meaning even if you reach retirement age (which keeps going up) it's uncertain whether you'll be able to afford to retire. Honestly, I'd be amazed if young people weren't anxious. I
Standards of living are higher today than 30 years ago or 60 years ago. Owning a house isn't more expensive. Pensions are much much higher and fewer OAPs live in awful poverty.
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Re: Young people and anxiety

Post by dyqik » Wed Jul 13, 2022 12:03 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 11:46 am
There's plenty of stats showing a genuine increase in anxiety in young people, btw.

Part of the explanation seems to be the commodification of attention and emotional engagement by big tech companies, especially for the in younger generations who were manipulated throughout their development by algorithms.
24 hour globalized news is probably also a factor here, on the "tech/media" side.

EPD's nan waiting for the daily newspaper is a different level of engagement than half a dozen news apps popping up breaking news alerts whenever there's a school shooting in Texas, an earthquake in Indonesia, a stabbing in that there London, etc., and TV screens showing three different versions of this constantly in public places (more of a US thing there).
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Re: Young people and anxiety

Post by dyqik » Wed Jul 13, 2022 12:03 pm

lpm wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 12:02 pm
Fishnut wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 10:00 am
We are killing our planet, and no-one in a position of power cares enough to do anything about it. We have f.cked our economy, costs of living are rising rapidly and salaries are nowhere near matching that rise. Many young people can barely afford to support themselves, let along save enough to own a home, or raise kids. Pensions are becoming much less generous meaning even if you reach retirement age (which keeps going up) it's uncertain whether you'll be able to afford to retire. Honestly, I'd be amazed if young people weren't anxious. I
Standards of living are higher today than 30 years ago or 60 years ago. Owning a house isn't more expensive. Pensions are much much higher and fewer OAPs live in awful poverty.
That's hardly a comfort to young people, who are constantly told that housing is out of reach (which it is, due to rents, and the higher deposits relative to earnings. Housing costs as a fraction of income have been going up for decades), and that the pensions system will collapse before they can claim them.

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Re: Young people and anxiety

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Jul 13, 2022 12:08 pm

plodder wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 11:54 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 11:43 am
The combination of evident impacts plus an obvious but avoided route away from catastrophe probably both combine to increase anxiety about those issues.
I guess my question is "is there more reported anxiety or more actual anxiety?"
There's definitely more reported anxiety, but I don't know how you'd propose to translate that to "actual" anxiety. Scientists seem to believe it's a real phenomenon and are investigating causes, eg
Hierarchical linear modeling analyses separating the effects of age, period, and birth cohort suggest the trends among adults are primarily due to cohort, with a steady rise in mood disorder and suicide-related outcomes between cohorts born from the early 1980s (Millennials) to the late 1990s (iGen). Cultural trends contributing to an increase in mood disorders and suicidal thoughts and behaviors since the mid-2000s, including the rise of electronic communication and digital media and declines in sleep duration, may have had a larger impact on younger people, creating a cohort effect.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30869927/
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Re: Young people and anxiety

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Jul 13, 2022 12:18 pm

dyqik wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 12:03 pm
lpm wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 12:02 pm
Fishnut wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 10:00 am
We are killing our planet, and no-one in a position of power cares enough to do anything about it. We have f.cked our economy, costs of living are rising rapidly and salaries are nowhere near matching that rise. Many young people can barely afford to support themselves, let along save enough to own a home, or raise kids. Pensions are becoming much less generous meaning even if you reach retirement age (which keeps going up) it's uncertain whether you'll be able to afford to retire. Honestly, I'd be amazed if young people weren't anxious. I
Standards of living are higher today than 30 years ago or 60 years ago. Owning a house isn't more expensive. Pensions are much much higher and fewer OAPs live in awful poverty.
That's hardly a comfort to young people, who are constantly told that housing is out of reach (which it is, due to rents, and the higher deposits relative to earnings. Housing costs as a fraction of income have been going up for decades), and that the pensions system will collapse before they can claim them.
I assume lpm meant "owning a house isn't more expensive relative to your income if you already own one", rather than "saving up to buy a house isn't more expensive relative to typical incomes minus cost of living", as the latter would be quite the claim. But that's what matters to the young.

Similarly the pension I'd get working at a UK university is much worse than somebody retiring now or a decade ago. Not sure about other fields.

Anyway the most recent IPCC report suggests that economic growth will be seriously damaged by over 2°C of warming, which is where we're almost certainly headed, and we're already seeing the first signs of issues with the global food supply. Putting faith in the continuation of the last century's trends for the rest of this one requires ignoring a huge amount of scientific evidence.
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Re: Young people and anxiety

Post by lpm » Wed Jul 13, 2022 12:20 pm

dyqik wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 12:03 pm
That's hardly a comfort to young people, who are constantly told that housing is out of reach (which it is, due to rents, and the higher deposits relative to earnings. Housing costs as a fraction of income have been going up for decades), and that the pensions system will collapse before they can claim them.
I don't know where to start with this. As a fraction of income, food and clothing costs have plummeted. Foreign holidays are now routine expenses. 25 million UK households own two cars.

House ownership is not any more out of reach for young people than before - it's always been a challenge. Yet young people are managing to get on the housing ladder while simultaneously having multiple holidays, a car and a f.cking avocado.
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Re: Young people and anxiety

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Jul 13, 2022 12:36 pm

It's true that society emphasises consumption over investment these days. I haven't had a bank account paying over 1% interest since the 2008 crash, ie my entire adult working life.

Nevertheless age of home ownership is increasing https://www.theguardian.com/money/2022/ ... ys-halifax
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Re: Young people and anxiety

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Jul 13, 2022 12:41 pm

dyqik wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 12:03 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 11:46 am
There's plenty of stats showing a genuine increase in anxiety in young people, btw.

Part of the explanation seems to be the commodification of attention and emotional engagement by big tech companies, especially for the in younger generations who were manipulated throughout their development by algorithms.
24 hour globalized news is probably also a factor here, on the "tech/media" side.

EPD's nan waiting for the daily newspaper is a different level of engagement than half a dozen news apps popping up breaking news alerts whenever there's a school shooting in Texas, an earthquake in Indonesia, a stabbing in that there London, etc., and TV screens showing three different versions of this constantly in public places (more of a US thing there).
Also just the constant barrage of social stuff. There's a lot of pressure to be online constantly and interacting, rather than just meeting your friends occasionally on purpose.
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Re: Young people and anxiety

Post by tom p » Wed Jul 13, 2022 12:41 pm

lpm wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 12:20 pm
dyqik wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 12:03 pm
That's hardly a comfort to young people, who are constantly told that housing is out of reach (which it is, due to rents, and the higher deposits relative to earnings. Housing costs as a fraction of income have been going up for decades), and that the pensions system will collapse before they can claim them.
I don't know where to start with this. As a fraction of income, food and clothing costs have plummeted. Foreign holidays are now routine expenses. 25 million UK households own two cars.

House ownership is not any more out of reach for young people than before - it's always been a challenge. Yet young people are managing to get on the housing ladder while simultaneously having multiple holidays, a car and a f.cking avocado.
This is bollocks.
UK house prices as a multiple of average salary (or compared to lower-end salaries, such as those that younger people earn) are much higher than they were 20 or more years ago
ETA: evidence
It's only been this bad once in the last 115 years, and that was in 2007 when the credit crunch happened
Another Edit: average rent has increased about 30% since 2008
Median earnings have increased over the same time period from 25,165 to 31,285. That's 24%. So rent costs notably more as part of your salary, so it's harder to save up for the ever-more expensive houses
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Re: Young people and anxiety

Post by tom p » Wed Jul 13, 2022 12:44 pm

plodder wrote:
Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:28 pm
Conversations around things like mental health, trigger warnings, anxiety are far more common than they used to be, and of course there are some positives to draw from this.

But as a middle aged old git it feels like younger people are floored by stuff (or worried about being floored by stuff) that perhaps they ought to be more resilient towards. Example - I've just sat through a wellbeing moment at work where a guy in his 20s has asked that our generic health and safety briefings come with a trigger warning that the briefing may contain material suitable for mature audiences.

I'm just a bit thinking this is too babyish for work. Someone talk me round please.
EPD's post was spot-on, and I think you may have identified a perfect example of someone who has gone too far the other direction.
Firstly, the wording is moronic - everyone at your work will be part of a mature audience. Secondly, unless there are graphic images of the consequences of not following good elfnsafety practices, then it's just a stupid request anyway

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