Labour Leadership - split from the problem with social media thread

[GeenDienst]

Blairism was sh.t though. No real attempt to avert the unfolding disaster that is 21st century capitalism. Getting involved in horrific wars for the benefit of American arms manufacturers despite them being massively unpopular. Somewhat better social programs then the alternatives, but no significant change in course for the country. It's one thing to be a centrist because you don't think the voters will go for anything better, but it's another thing to be one of the voters dragging things to the right. Britain is economically unusually right wing. Not because of something deep in the national character, but because of decisions people made in the 80s and later. Anyone who doesn't want to unwind those changes is not on the left, and should, quite frankly, just join the Lib Dems or the Tories. If leftist ideas are unelectable in the UK then so be it, but it would be nice if Corbyn could run on the left without other self-proclaimed leftists complaining he's unelectable for believing in left wing ideas. It would be nice if the Labour party were able to offer an alternative to the essentially neoliberal economic narrative that has, despite being shown to be b.llsh.t over and over again, dominated the last 40 or so years.

There are several false dichotomies, and other leaps, in there. It doesn't have to be "Corbyn or centrists". The Labour party is free to offer any narrative it wants to, and another leader could, er, lead that. Not being a Corbyn supporter doesn't mean you "should" join any other given political party. And if you mean the Observer's Nick Cohen by "self proclaimed leftists (I'm certainly not one), then the reason he doesn't want Corbyn as PM is not that "he's unelectable for believing in left wing ideas", his list of reasons are in the clip I linked to.

It's much more of a Corbyn thing than a Labour thing, and that's what so many lefties seem to avoid. The left's response seems to be to circle the wagons around him every time, and call everybody else a tory, and it's not helping Labour to help the people it wants to.

If Labour does lose again, he very probably is going to have to go, and soon, whatever McCluskey wants. A poll of Labour members (YouGov, link below) earlier this year had ratings of Corbyn "doing a good job" down to 56%. Only about the same wanted him to lead them into this election. Can't see another loss helping that. If we assume Labour has ~500k members (they don't, probably but close enough for this), then the 56% was a majority of about 30,000, ish. More than are reported to have left the party recently. Assuming these weren't Corbynistas, by and large, this kind of trend will help preserve a majority for him, for a while, but there are obvious problems down the line. The party has to keep its members engaged and energised, and there is a limit to support for Corbyn, even there.

What then for promoting a national shift leftward? McDonnell could have the brains and guile to pull it off, but will share some of Corbyn's historical baggage (cf. Cohen, above). And they will probably be under some pressure to elect a woman, at long last. According to members (YouGov) earlier this year, Starmer would be favourite at (but has testicles), with Thornberry top female contender. She has her white van problem, of course. Long-Bailey was way behind, but Momentum will probably back her, if she stands, as she is Unite sponsored. I wish they'd give it to Jess Phillips, but that's not going to happen

[El Pollo Diablo]

I'm amazed that Starmer is so popular tbh. I'd rather him than any of the rest. I'd love Creasy as well, even if she could do with a bit of an ironing.

[dyqik]

It is more than possible for Labour to offer those ideas. It just can't have the trilogy of offering them, with Corbyn in charge, and being in government. If they find someone with charisma, then brilliant.

Why are there so few charismatic leftists in the Labour party then? Maybe it has something to do with New Labour not being a left wing party.

I think they all got driven out by Momentum for having practical ideas about how to actually make the left wing policies work.

[GeenDienst]

It is more than possible for Labour to offer those ideas. It just can't have the trilogy of offering them, with Corbyn in charge, and being in government. If they find someone with charisma, then brilliant.

To start with, they need a wider pool to pick from, for the time after next, or the time after that. Somebody now like Starmer, Thornberry or, I dunno, Chakrabarti could possibly have enough cachet with the left, to make room to try to bring back the excluded good MPs (e.g. Creasey again), or non-Corbybnistas from new intakes, into the Shadow cabinet, and thus positions of influence. Back towards the broad church, bit like Foot helped to hold it together in the 1980s, so that Smith, Kinnock could start to build for later government.

It would be interesting to see how much of an obstacle Momentum would be to that.

I'd love Creasy as well, even if she could do with a bit of an ironing.

Could she legally consent to being ironed?

[Bird on a Fire]

It is more than possible for Labour to offer those ideas. It just can't have the trilogy of offering them, with Corbyn in charge, and being in government. If they find someone with charisma, then brilliant.

Why are there so few charismatic leftists in the Labour party then? Maybe it has something to do with New Labour not being a left wing party.

I think they all got driven out by Momentum for having practical ideas about how to actually make the left wing policies work.

Which charismatic leftists have been driven out by Momentum?

[GeenDienst]

I'm amazed that Starmer is so popular tbh...

Actually, this may have been the time (or not too long after) when Starmer was trying to put together a sensible, remain-leaning EU stance. He was very visible for a while.

[dyqik]

Why are there so few charismatic leftists in the Labour party then? Maybe it has something to do with New Labour not being a left wing party.

I think they all got driven out by Momentum for having practical ideas about how to actually make the left wing policies work.

Which charismatic leftists have been driven out by Momentum?

I don't pay that much attention to Labour personalities, since I'll never vote for them, due to being registered in a Lib Dem/Tory marginal. But Watson, for one.

[GeenDienst]

You're going to get some for calling Watson a leftist.

[dyqik]

You're going to get some for calling Watson a leftist.

He's a leftist. He's just not a Momentum/Socialist Worker's Party loony.

[GeenDienst]

Just '*avin'* a larrfff.

Watson is an absolute hate figure for the flavour of lefties you tend to find BTL. To them, he's a red tory infiltrator, they absolutely f.cking hate him.

*In respectful memory of the Apostrophe Society.

[Iron Magpie]

My preference for the next leader would be none of those so far mentioned.
Angela Rayner for me...

[jimbob]

For me, I dislike Corbyn and would rather someone else was in charge of the Labour party. He's been near-enough hopeless since day one, the only good thing really being that I actually like a big load of the labour manifesto quite a lot. But Christ alive, there will be books, probably plays, written about this period of Britain's history and the fact that just when the country needed a statesman, we ended up with Shagger and Grandad.

But it's no good people on the labour side standing there screaming in each other's faces about it. Especially seeing as, unless Boris Johnson's ditch has a wider invitation list, he's going nowhere for now.

I think personally that there is a very valid point about the haste of trying to out Corbyn back in 2016 (not 2017), and even at the time I felt it was far too quick. If they'd left it until more recent times, and played ball with a sense of giving him a fair crack, Labour might not be fighting this election with one arm tied behind their backs and their nipples stuck to a lamppost. But then, Corbyn really does incense the centre of the party, just as they incense the left of the party.

But the centre hasn't exactly been a doyen of policy brilliance, has it? They've not especially won over the soul of the Labour party with brilliantly thought-through reasoning. They just expect the party to be theirs.

Pretty much this.

[jimbob]

Blairism was sh.t though. No real attempt to avert the unfolding disaster that is 21st century capitalism. Getting involved in horrific wars for the benefit of American arms manufacturers despite them being massively unpopular. Somewhat better social programs then the alternatives, but no significant change in course for the country. It's one thing to be a centrist because you don't think the voters will go for anything better, but it's another thing to be one of the voters dragging things to the right. Britain is economically unusually right wing. Not because of something deep in the national character, but because of decisions people made in the 80s and later. Anyone who doesn't want to unwind those changes is not on the left, and should, quite frankly, just join the Lib Dems or the Tories. If leftist ideas are unelectable in the UK then so be it, but it would be nice if Corbyn could run on the left without other self-proclaimed leftists complaining he's unelectable for believing in left wing ideas. It would be nice if the Labour party were able to offer an alternative to the essentially neoliberal economic narrative that has, despite being shown to be b.llsh.t over and over again, dominated the last 40 or so years.

Blairism did have too much belief in economic neoliberalism, but it also managed some pretty effective interventions to reduce poverty - Sure Start, for example.

And the Tories were as bad as now, so they were a *vast* improvement on the alternative

[GeenDienst]

Yes, New Labour did turn shite at the end, once Tone's Messiah complex set in and then we found out that Gord was best suited for other opportunities. IIRC, Blair has said they were too timid early on.

But they did some good stuff along the way.

https://www.tutor2u.net/politics/blog/l ... since-1997"

My preference for the next leader would be none of those so far mentioned.
Angela Rayner for me...

Poser for Corbyn-disdaining remoaners there.

Rayner is anti-second referendum, preferring to defer to her local racists xenophobes salt-of-the-earth-working-class-types. So if there were a hung parliament, and she was in the frame to take over, remainer members would need to keep Corbyn in place long enough to try to get the other parties make him fulfil his manifesto promise on that.

Probably, Rayner would prefer to take a shot at the leadership, if she does at all, after Johnson has taken the UK out, otherwise it could be a tricky campaign given that the Labour membership seems pretty strongly Remain.

[secret squirrel]

You're going to get some for calling Watson a leftist.

He's a leftist. He's just not a Momentum/Socialist Worker's Party loony.

What leftist policies does he support?

[dyqik]

You're going to get some for calling Watson a leftist.

He's a leftist. He's just not a Momentum/Socialist Worker's Party loony.

What leftist policies does he support?

The Labour Party manifesto.

[GeenDienst]

Another thing, what happened to the old Tribunite Left? Solid, not-too-far-lefties,* like Jeff Rooker. Barbara Castle, Michael Foot. They seem to have disappeared along with the centrists, now it's all One Voice.

*At least by the 1980s, once the Bennites split off, including one J Corbyn.

[secret squirrel]

He's a leftist. He's just not a Momentum/Socialist Worker's Party loony.

What leftist policies does he support?

The Labour Party manifesto.

So Corbyn is driving away the good leftists by putting things they agree with in the Labour manifesto?

[Bird on a Fire]

I knew Watson had resigned, but didn't realise it was because of Momentum. Can anyone fill me in on what happened? All I can find are articles quoting him as citing "personal, not political, reasons".

[GeenDienst]

Watson is keeping relatively schtum, politically. A stated reason was that he's working to become a "level 2 fitness instructor", and work in public health promotion after his recent health history.

Rawnsley covered it amusingly, with a link to his resignation statement (scan of it in the second link).

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -unfittest

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... down-as-mp

[dyqik]

What leftist policies does he support?

The Labour Party manifesto.

So Corbyn is driving away the good leftists by putting things they agree with in the Labour manifesto?

It's not about the manifesto, AFAICT.

[secret squirrel]

It's not about the manifesto, AFAICT.

But, Watson aside, surely there's some disconnect between the idea that Corbyn and Momentum have driven out the sensible leftists and the idea that the Labour manifesto is full of sensible leftist policies? It seems to me to be difficult for all those things to be true at the same time.

[dyqik]

It's not about the manifesto, AFAICT.

But, Watson aside, surely there's some disconnect between the idea that Corbyn and Momentum have driven out the sensible leftists and the idea that the Labour manifesto is full of sensible leftist policies? It seems to me to be difficult for all those things to be true at the same time.

They've successfully removed the sensible people at the top of the Parliamentary party, so that the voting public generally can't name them or expect them to lead the party.

The manifesto is written rather differently to how the Parliamentary party is run.

[dyqik]

But it's the Parliamentary party leadership that chooses how policies are presented to the public and that has to do the job of selling policies, priorities and executives abilities.

[secret squirrel]

But it's the Parliamentary party leadership that chooses how policies are presented to the public and that has to do the job of selling policies, priorities and executives abilities.

Well we can all agree that Corbyn has done a very poor job convincing people of his competence. But since we also seem to think there's a lot of good stuff in the Labour manifesto, perhaps the noble lie* that he's awesome, or, at least, not sh.t, would be better than seemingly endless comments about how unelectable he is. I mean, I would understand it if there was some deep ideological disagreement with the manifesto, like maybe if Momentum had put something in about wanting to turn the City of London into a giant collective farm**. But since apparently the sensible leftists like it, why have they not found it within themselves to get behind Corbyn for a better shot at getting some of it done?

*For people who believe it's a lie.
**Not necessarily a bad idea.