Liz Truss - an unending void of horror and pain

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Woodchopper
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Re: Liz Truss - an unending void of horror and pain

Post by Woodchopper » Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:18 pm

:evil: ok
noggins wrote:
Sun Oct 02, 2022 12:54 pm
I dont buy the public being leftwing economically.

I think most people want to have their cake and eat it, and if you ask them “do you want public services X Y and Z to be well funded?” they’ll say “Yes” and if you ask them “do you want lower taxes?” they’ll say “Yes”.
And poll leftwingness is a reaction to 12 years of toryism.
Give em 4-8 years of Labour and theyll be frothing at the mouth for free enterprise.
The best source on attitudes is the British Social Attitudes survey. It shows that 7% say they want taxes and spending reduced, 40% want them at the current level and 52% say they want them increased. https://www.bsa.natcen.ac.uk/latest-rep ... ality.aspx

So by that the Truss administration is way to the right economically.

But of course there are major caveats. As you write, it’s one thing to say something in a survey, another to vote for a policy.

Secondly, what do we mean by left wing? There’s people here and elsewhere willing to denounce Labour as no different from the Tories. In those terms the UK electorate isn’t left wing (so long as that’s conceived as radically changing society rather than adding a few percent to tax rates).

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Re: Liz Truss - an unending void of horror and pain

Post by Little waster » Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:38 pm

Telegraph headline today:-

Truss: My plan is the only way to stop the UK's slow decline.

Presumably by replacing it with a quick decline.

She's going to be outraged when finds out who has been in charge of the country for the last 12 years.
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Re: Liz Truss - an unending void of horror and pain

Post by jimbob » Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:19 pm

This is an interesting tweet.
Could there be anything worse than unfunded tax cuts for the wealthy? Liz Truss has come up with the answer. Tax cuts for the wealthy funded by cuts to public services #kuenssberg


Spoiler:


See also My MPs tweet, and there are lots of other Tory MPs saying similar

https://twitter.com/robertlargan/status ... S0npiCTl2w
Robert Largan
@robertlargan
·
Sep 29
Normal
5%
This is untenable. You cannot freeze benefits and pensions while cutting taxes for millionaires.

A debt reduction plan needs to be both economically and politically sustainable to be credible.
Truss is managing to undo decades of Tory spin on the economy. Dating back to Callaghan - not even Major's Black Monday completely wiped it out. But Truss seems to be able to.

Finally
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Liz Truss - an unending void of horror and pain

Post by raven » Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:39 pm

Has anyone said anything about this yet? She's been PM for almost 4 weeks, and still no science minister.

Where is the UK science minister? Government’s plans worry researchers

I am deeply suspicious that it won't just be benefits that get cut to fund growth, it'll be research too. And a whole bunch of public spending. The NI increase was supposed to fund the NHS and social care. I haven't noticed anything about how they're going to replace that funding, but I have this strange shouty reaction to seeing Truss on tv and might have missed it....

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Re: Liz Truss - an unending void of horror and pain

Post by nezumi » Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:37 pm

Yes, I know petitions are a waste of time but please sign this one, I really want to see it get over a million signatures.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/619781
Non fui. Fui. Non sum. Non curo.

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Re: Liz Truss - an unending void of horror and pain

Post by jimbob » Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:43 pm

nezumi wrote:
Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:37 pm
Yes, I know petitions are a waste of time but please sign this one, I really want to see it get over a million signatures.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/619781
It will be amusing seeing it booked for a debate anyway. And signed.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Liz Truss - an unending void of horror and pain

Post by jimbob » Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:45 pm

jimbob wrote:
Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:43 pm
nezumi wrote:
Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:37 pm
Yes, I know petitions are a waste of time but please sign this one, I really want to see it get over a million signatures.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/619781
It will be amusing seeing it booked for a debate anyway. And signed.
Anyway, about 1% of my constituency has signed so far (just over)
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Liz Truss - an unending void of horror and pain

Post by Gfamily » Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:09 pm

Little waster wrote:
Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:38 pm
She's going to be outraged when finds out who has been in charge of the country for the last 12 years.
Unless she's been a deep cover agent for the LDs all along*.

*Except that <that one> and <oh, that other one> rather rather f.cked it for the LDs in the meantime**.

** someone tweeted about having been at Liverpool and (umm, Harrogate?) before going to B'ham for the Conservatives, and I wouldn't have known that anyone had had a party conference at Harrogate (or wherever it was).
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Meta? I'd say so!

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Re: Liz Truss - an unending void of horror and pain

Post by nekomatic » Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:14 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:49 am
A typical leave voter was working class, from the north of England and had a long history of voting Labour.
I know I’m being a tedious remoaner here but 65% of Labour voters who voted in the referendum voted Remain, compared with 61% of Conservatives who voted Leave (source). Numerically I also don’t believe the data supports that ‘The typical Leave voter was from the north of England’ (source which I might analyse further if I want to be really boring).
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Re: Liz Truss - an unending void of horror and pain

Post by Millennie Al » Mon Oct 03, 2022 12:11 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:18 pm
The best source on attitudes is the British Social Attitudes survey. It shows that 7% say they want taxes and spending reduced, 40% want them at the current level and 52% say they want them increased. https://www.bsa.natcen.ac.uk/latest-rep ... ality.aspx
...
But of course there are major caveats. As you write, it’s one thing to say something in a survey, another to vote for a policy.
One of the flaws in that survey is that it offers the option:
Increase taxes and spend more on health, education and
social benefits
rather than the more realistic option of increasing taxes to spend on whatever the government likes. That might be a bit less popular.

The other flaw, which is not specific to the survey, is that someone's opinion may differ depending whether it is increasing taxes paid by other people or increasing taxes paid by themselves. Many people seem to think that there are a lot more rich people than there really are, leading them to believe that taxes can easily be raised from people not like them.

It would be interesting to ask people this question: what proportion of households do you think should be net taxpayers after taking into account the value received by state services (i.e. things like NHS, education, etc)? In other words, how many should get more than they pay for and how many should pay for more than they get. And a followup question: what do you think that proportion is now?

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Re: Liz Truss - an unending void of horror and pain

Post by headshot » Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:39 am

Handbrake…hard right!!!

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... chancellor
Liz Truss abandons plan to scrap 45p top rate of income tax amid Tory revolt.

Government makes U-turn over proposal to abolish top-rate tax cut after growing backlash over mini-budget

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Re: Liz Truss - an unending void of horror and pain

Post by bjn » Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:42 am

headshot wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:39 am
Handbrake…hard right!!!

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... chancellor
Liz Truss abandons plan to scrap 45p top rate of income tax amid Tory revolt.

Government makes U-turn over proposal to abolish top-rate tax cut after growing backlash over mini-budget
Called it.

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Re: Liz Truss - an unending void of horror and pain

Post by plodder » Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:31 am

Both Truss and Kwarteng have been told in no uncertain terms to rein their necks in. He's now apologising for the champagne with bankers thing.

The big difference between the parties is that Labour don't do this lock em in a room with a nutter with a baseball bat stuff to their leaders.

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Re: Liz Truss - an unending void of horror and pain

Post by Little waster » Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:52 am

plodder wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:31 am
He's now apologising for the champagne with bankers thing.
I guess that will be the last time he asks Labour Central Office to organise his social events and press coverage.

Talk about bad optics; he may as well have had portions of baby served on silver platters while the guests took turns diving into a swimming pool filled with gold coins, Scrooge McDuck-style. :shock:
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Re: Liz Truss - an unending void of horror and pain

Post by IvanV » Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:00 am

bjn wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:42 am
headshot wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:39 am
Handbrake…hard right!!!

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... chancellor
Liz Truss abandons plan to scrap 45p top rate of income tax amid Tory revolt.

Government makes U-turn over proposal to abolish top-rate tax cut after growing backlash over mini-budget
Called it.
Yes, you were pretty nearly spot on. Though I think the bankers keep their bonuses. I think that proved a cosmetic measure, so doesn't worry me that one.

Just heard Kwarteng being interviewed by Nick Robinson on R4. There was no contrition in him. He said the interest rate increase, etc, was substantially down to what the Federal Reserve was up to, and would have happened anyway.

He said that public spending would be in line with the 2021 public spending review. That basically means no inflation increases for anyone. Real terms spending cuts across the board. But he wouldn't be drawn on details, wait till late Nov.

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Re: Liz Truss - an unending void of horror and pain

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:06 am

And the OBR forecast? Still under wraps?

Can't believe nobody's leaked it tbh.
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Re: Liz Truss - an unending void of horror and pain

Post by philbo » Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:50 am

plodder wrote:
Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:00 am
Wow, f.cking hell:

https://conservativehome.com/2022/09/30 ... eal-world/
Paul Goodman used to be my MP (Wycombe, before Steve "Ha-ha-hard man of Brexit" Baker). One of those "nice but utterly ineffectual, small-c-conservative" types where you wonder whether they drained all their charisma in their presentation to the constituency committee.

This is akin to Healey's "like being savaged by a dead sheep" comment about Geoffrey Howe.

It's becoming ever less likely that Starmer's going to be the next Prime Minister, ISTM. Maybe third or fourth in line: how many leadership contests can the Tories fit in before the next election, anyway?

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Re: Liz Truss - an unending void of horror and pain

Post by dyqik » Mon Oct 03, 2022 1:25 pm

philbo wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:50 am
It's becoming ever less likely that Starmer's going to be the next Prime Minister, ISTM. Maybe third or fourth in line: how many leadership contests can the Tories fit in before the next election, anyway?
I'd guess one or two before the party splits so hard that it no longer commands a majority. Rather than it reaching the calendar deadline for another election.

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Re: Liz Truss - an unending void of horror and pain

Post by TopBadger » Mon Oct 03, 2022 1:44 pm

dyqik wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 1:25 pm

I'd guess one or two before the party splits so hard that it no longer commands a majority. Rather than it reaching the calendar deadline for another election.
Tories are generally all about unity - a split seems highly unlikely.

There is certainly a split though between the parliamentary party and the broader membership... MP's wanted a safe pair of hands in Sunak and members wanted a blistering "pure blue" Tory tax cutting agenda. If they boot Truss out they'll need to make sure to have two fairly dull candidates from their moderate / sensible wing for the membership to vote for... otherwise this could happen again.
Last edited by TopBadger on Mon Oct 03, 2022 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Liz Truss - an unending void of horror and pain

Post by TopBadger » Mon Oct 03, 2022 1:45 pm

Double post edit fail...
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Re: Liz Truss - an unending void of horror and pain

Post by Hunting Dog » Mon Oct 03, 2022 1:51 pm

For anyone who thinks a general election would be a good idea: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/619781

...yes I know they'll ignore it but if it got into the millions it might send a message...

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Re: Liz Truss - an unending void of horror and pain

Post by FlammableFlower » Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:01 pm

I don't know if this should be split off... but these tweets from the Tory party conference Bruges group are something else - they need the Little Waster treatment I feel...

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Re: Liz Truss - an unending void of horror and pain

Post by dyqik » Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:18 pm

TopBadger wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 1:44 pm
dyqik wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 1:25 pm

I'd guess one or two before the party splits so hard that it no longer commands a majority. Rather than it reaching the calendar deadline for another election.
Tories are generally all about unity - a split seems highly unlikely.

There is certainly a split though between the parliamentary party and the broader membership... MP's wanted a safe pair of hands in Sunak and members wanted a blistering "pure blue" Tory tax cutting agenda. If they boot Truss out they'll need to make sure to have two fairly dull candidates from their moderate / sensible wing for the membership to vote for... otherwise this could happen again.
It doesn't need to be a large splinter group to wipe out the majority though - 30-40, I think depending on how you count the DUP - which is smaller than the threshold for a leadership challenge.

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Re: Liz Truss - an unending void of horror and pain

Post by Little waster » Mon Oct 03, 2022 3:08 pm

FlammableFlower wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:01 pm
I don't know if this should be split off... but these tweets from the Tory party conference Bruges group are something else - they need the Little Waster treatment I feel...
I'm not entirely sure I can better them TBH, us mere amateurs can never hope to compete with the professional hat-stands.
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What is here was dangerous and repulsive to us.
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Re: Liz Truss - an unending void of horror and pain

Post by jimbob » Mon Oct 03, 2022 3:35 pm

Nadine Dorries calling for a general election.

Um
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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