The Queen

[Little waster]

The monarch is supposed to only intervene as a last resort. Doing so would literally the suspension of democracy by a hereditary leader. The Queen shouldn't have intervened in those examples because they were resolved without her - by the Supreme Court and by the Tory MPs forcing Johnson to resign. The very last thing anyone needs is the monarch intervening in democratic politics unless it is the only option left.

But then you are arguing the counterfactual; had the Supreme Court not ruled against prorogation (and we know from the US how variable a Supreme Court's decisions can be) or declared it beyond their scope would the Queen have intervened then, not only would she have been going against all precedence but actually going against a legal judgement. You can't have it both ways; under that scenario there are no circumstances where the monarch would be compelled to act.

Similarly that Johnson DID eventually step down didn't mean he HAD to. If he had been a bit more Trumpian he could have just stayed put and cobbled together some sort of skeleton cabinet out of his dwindling band of supporters and screw the electoral consequences. In which case at what point does the monarch send the Army in?

Without a Head of State's powers and perogatives spelled out explicitly we are left with the vague hope that the PTB would somehow figure it out on the hoof and that enough good people in powerful positions make the right call. Again, the 2020 US Presidential election count is a case study on how close to the wire that sort of "hoping for the best" can take you and it only needs to malfunction once.

Doing so would literally the suspension of democracy by a hereditary leader.

And just to reiterate the 2019 prorogation WAS the "literal suspension of democracy by a hereditary leader", she did it because the PM told her to. This is just one of a vast swath of executive powers the PM wields on the theoretical behalf of the monarch but in reality with no real oversight (democratic or other) at all, with more to come with the recent expansion of the PM's discretionary "Henry VIII powers".

[Grumble]

I've been struck by the extent to which people from outside Britain and the Commonwealth have been upset at the passing of the Queen. That shouldn't be a surprise as the royal family have always been very popular around the world.

But as well as her celebrity I think that there is also a sense in which she was seen as something stable in a world that has changed rapidly and over the last few years has seemed to have become much more unstable and chaotic. Her death in 2022 seems to symbolize for many people the final passing of an era which may have been much more benign than what we have to look forward to.

True, I personally will be much more upset when David Attenborough goes, but for similar reasons.

[Opti]

I've been struck by the extent to which people from outside Britain and the Commonwealth have been upset at the passing of the Queen. That shouldn't be a surprise as the royal family have always been very popular around the world.

But as well as her celebrity I think that there is also a sense in which she was seen as something stable in a world that has changed rapidly and over the last few years has seemed to have become much more unstable and chaotic. Her death in 2022 seems to symbolize for many people the final passing of an era which may have been much more benign than what we have to look forward to.

Series Finale innit.

[discovolante]

It's a bit 'where are all the grown-ups' isn't it.

[IvanV]

I've been struck by the extent to which people from outside Britain and the Commonwealth have been upset at the passing of the Queen. That shouldn't be a surprise as the royal family have always been very popular around the world.

My Czech wife was very upset. Her reaction was such that my daughter started laughing, and she got even more upset.

[jdc]

the royal family have always been very popular around the world

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[Stephanie]

the royal family have always been very popular around the world

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god, i love derry girls

[shpalman]

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Not that passing from one monarch to another at this point makes the slightest bit of difference.

[lpm]

Quiz question: who was the last monarch to die in Scotland.

This quiz was overtaken by events.

It was a trick question. No monarchs of England and Scotland died in Scotland, until Elizabeth II.

Last monarch of Scotland only, who died in Scotland, was James V.

[shpalman]

Italia Uno is showing London Has Fallen

[dyqik]

Italia Uno is showing London Has Fallen

Not The King's Speech?

[Woodchopper]

I've been struck by the extent to which people from outside Britain and the Commonwealth have been upset at the passing of the Queen. That shouldn't be a surprise as the royal family have always been very popular around the world.

But as well as her celebrity I think that there is also a sense in which she was seen as something stable in a world that has changed rapidly and over the last few years has seemed to have become much more unstable and chaotic. Her death in 2022 seems to symbolize for many people the final passing of an era which may have been much more benign than what we have to look forward to.

Series Finale innit.

Let’s hope the next series isn’t the one where the writers jump the shark and bring on one doom after another

[dyqik]

What I want to know is when the Sex Pistols will be going into the recording studio to bring their hit up to date.

[jdc]

What I want to know is when the Sex Pistols will be going into the recording studio to bring their hit up to date.

Lydon's too busy being a fawning sycophant and mourning the passing of her maj.

[Millennie Al]

The only thing known to go faster than ordinary light is monarchy, according to the philosopher Ly Tin Wheedle. He reasoned like this: you can't have more than one king, and tradition demands that there is no gap between kings, so when a king dies the succession must therefore pass to the heir instantaneously. Presumably, he said, there must be some elementary particles -- kingons, or possibly queons -- that do this job, but of course succession sometimes fails if, in mid-flight, they strike an anti-particle, or
republicon. His ambitious plans to use his discovery to send messages, involving the careful torturing of a small king in order to modulate the signal, were never fully expanded because, at that point, the bar closed.

Pratchett.

It's a form of Quantum Entanglement (QE) - the effect is instant but cannot be used to transmit information.

[Millennie Al]

Without a Head of State's powers and perogatives spelled out explicitly we are left with the vague hope that the PTB would somehow figure it out on the hoof and that enough good people in powerful positions make the right call. Again, the 2020 US Presidential election count is a case study on how close to the wire that sort of "hoping for the best" can take you and it only needs to malfunction once.

But the USA has all that stuff spelled out explicitly, so how did it make a difference?

[Bewildered]

I don’t agree with the statements that queen did the job well. She didn’t massively f.ck it up or create a crisis, but she clung onto her obscene level of wealth (good for her family / bad for the public) etc and when people talk about public service, for the money these f.cks get I can think of a lot more efforts they could go to on behalf of people in the UK. I’m tempted to give an extended example but it might get me banned…

The f.cking bbc has gone beyond bananas splattering every page with this guff, I want to see whoever is responsible dragged into the streets and…

[EACLucifer]

20220909_191459.jpg

Not that passing from one monarch to another at this point makes the slightest bit of difference.

The Queen had, as of just a few months ago, higher favourability ratings in the Republic of Ireland than any of their own political figures.

[shpalman]

Royal assent is practically automatic but royal consent, well... https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... nment-memo

[shpalman]

20220909_191459.jpg

Not that passing from one monarch to another at this point makes the slightest bit of difference.

The Queen had, as of just a few months ago, higher favourability ratings in the Republic of Ireland than any of their own political figures.

Well, also I struggle to understand why people blame the monarch for whatever sh.t the UK government did.

[Little waster]

Without a Head of State's powers and perogatives spelled out explicitly we are left with the vague hope that the PTB would somehow figure it out on the hoof and that enough good people in powerful positions make the right call. Again, the 2020 US Presidential election count is a case study on how close to the wire that sort of "hoping for the best" can take you and it only needs to malfunction once.

But the USA has all that stuff spelled out explicitly, so how did it make a difference?

The US Presidential model is based on the UK model with essentially an “Elected King” wielding many of the monarchs powers with the rest of the system imperfectly setup to try and restrain them. That model is always at risk of an amoral sociopath becoming President and overtly partisan courts, Congress etc. going along with them regardless of their supposed duty to the country and constitution.

Other options are available such as Ireland’s e.g have day-to-day power rest with a cabinet drawn from an elected parliament (with PR to ensure coalitions and actual majority support), have a first-among-equal form of PM rather than a Presidential-style and have a largely ceremonial elected President taking the UK monarch’s current role as head of the armed forces and genuine constitutional backstop with the relative roles and responsibilities explicitly spelled out.

No system is perfect but the flaws in the UK system are pretty stark. And yes the US system is creaking at the seams but that has been a process decades in the making, Johnson got us 99% of the way there in a matter of months. It was what 3 months between him becoming PM and him essentially attempting a coup ... sorry I meant him “temporarily suspending democracy in light of the current National Emergency due to the unpatriotic actions of wreckers, dissidents and foreign operatives who will be purged!”.

[lpm]

There's no need for the Head of State to be elected.

We don't elect the Cabinet Secretary. We don't elect the Ambassador to France. We don't elect the Chair of Save the Children.

[bjn]

There's no need for the Head of State to be elected.

We don't elect the Cabinet Secretary. We don't elect the Ambassador to France. We don't elect the Chair of Save the Children.

There are mechanisms to appoint those, with varying degrees of accountability to stakeholders (I do hate that word). Not so much when appointment is based on being born to the right person.

Now if the head of state was totally stripped of any powers, and there were no other side effects such the royal prerogative of government, I’d be happy for it to be hereditary, all the feel good pomp, none of the politics. But that’s not what we have.

[Little waster]

There's no need for the Head of State to be elected.

We don't NEED to elect anyone but to go full Monty Python "supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses not farcical appointment ceremonies".

If we envisage the head of state role being the backstop capable in extremis of over-ruling the actions of a democratically-elected PM up to the point of even having them physically removed from power and taken into custody they will need the authority that can only stem from a clear democratic mandate rather just being the clubbable chum of the current PM or former winner of Big Brother or whatever.

Otherwise you may as well get a moistened strong independent woman to hand out scimitars as the basis of government.

[lpm]

The Accession Show on the telly was absolutely marvellous.

Totally mad.

I think what makes these things so great is that none of the people performing in fancy dress realise it's all crazy fantasy. They take it seriously. It's like comedy being funnier when played straight.

The closest comparison would be to televise the Fish Slapping Dance with everyone thinking it's a solemn historical event.