Scrutable

Annoying people in their normal routine is one thing, doing it during a funeral (effectively) is stepping over a line.

Grumble wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 15, 2022 5:25 am

Annoying people in their normal routine is one thing, doing it during a funeral (effectively) is stepping over a line.

Cancelling people's hospital appointments for this funeral crosses a far more important line - and having crossed that line they should expect protests.

It's not just any funeral. The funeral itself is part of the problem. Just as in life the Queen enjoyed extraordinary wealth - at the expense of ordinary people. Now in addition to the lavish funeral and associated arrangements being funded by the state - people are having their lives disrupted.

And if someone rolls out the "generates a lot of money from tourism" line - maybe she could lie in state indefinitely like Lenin? Could generate income for decades to come!

(As a staunch republican - I've tried to remain quiet and respectful during the past week - but many lines have been crossed as far as I'm concerned. With the passing of Brenda - it's time to ditch this obscene institution ASAP - Brian is not getting my deference).

Grumble wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 15, 2022 5:25 am

Annoying people in their normal routine is one thing, doing it during a funeral (effectively) is stepping over a line.

Should they get a criminal record for it though?

There seem to be three main points to argue over with these protests:

1) are they effective?
2) are they morally justified?
3) should they be criminalised?

They were all slightly different so the answer might be different for each of them. For 1) I'd say there's an argument that they aren't because they are just more likely to piss off people who might otherwise be sympathetic, but on the other hand they might get more attention than at the coronation (possibly).

For 2) yes it is clearly going to be pretty upsetting for a lot of people. On the other hand a lot of people are upset at the reverence shown to the queen, the enforced mourning and the presumption that everyone should think and behave in the same way in response to her death, and I think that is understandable and should be taken a lot more seriously. See the replies and quote tweets in response to this tweet for example https://twitter.com/GeraldJonesLAB/stat ... PJPco-VZhw

For 3), I personally think we have a longstanding problem with criminalising behaviour that is basically just a bit annoying. The Act that was passed this year has made it worse but I think the threshold is already too low tbh.

discovolante wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 15, 2022 6:11 am

Grumble wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 15, 2022 5:25 am

Annoying people in their normal routine is one thing, doing it during a funeral (effectively) is stepping over a line.

Should they get a criminal record for it though?

There seem to be three main points to argue over with these protests:

1) are they effective?
2) are they morally justified?
3) should they be criminalised?

They were all slightly different so the answer might be different for each of them. For 1) I'd say there's an argument that they aren't because they are just more likely to piss off people who might otherwise be sympathetic, but on the other hand they might get more attention than at the coronation (possibly).

For 2) yes it is clearly going to be pretty upsetting for a lot of people. On the other hand a lot of people are upset at the reverence shown to the queen, the enforced mourning and the presumption that everyone should think and behave in the same way in response to her death, and I think that is understandable and should be taken a lot more seriously. See the replies and quote tweets in response to this tweet for example https://twitter.com/GeraldJonesLAB/stat ... PJPco-VZhw

For 3), I personally think we have a longstanding problem with criminalising behaviour that is basically just a bit annoying. The Act that was passed this year has made it worse but I think the threshold is already too low tbh.

Well split out. I’m certainly not arguing for 3), and although I was coming from a point of view of arguing mainly about 1) the heavy handed police response and point 3) may actually swing the needle on 1) towards “effective”.

I know it's a bit of a cliché but I think if we were to look back on this in a couple of hundred years or whatever, I think we'd be astonished and probably a bit suspicious if there were no signs of unrest following the death of a wealthy monarch during a period where more and more people are at risk of freezing/going hungry/becoming homeless.

discovolante wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 15, 2022 6:53 am

I know it's a bit of a cliché but I think if we were to look back on this in a couple of hundred years or whatever, I think we'd be astonished and probably a bit suspicious if there were no signs of unrest following the death of a wealthy monarch during a period where more and more people are at risk of freezing/going hungry/becoming homeless.

What's the Queen got to do with that? There are plenty of wealthy folks who manage to successfully preserve and hand down that wealth.

Or are you suggesting raising funds by selling of the Crown estate to Saudi? The royal art collection to Elon Musk? I'm sure we'll look back on losing those with pride.

Alternatively we could look at putting the blame where it lies... which is government policy around taxation, energy security, housebuilding standards, minimum wages, etc... Years of Tory rule have placed us where we are.

TopBadger wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 15, 2022 9:49 am

discovolante wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 15, 2022 6:53 am

I know it's a bit of a cliché but I think if we were to look back on this in a couple of hundred years or whatever, I think we'd be astonished and probably a bit suspicious if there were no signs of unrest following the death of a wealthy monarch during a period where more and more people are at risk of freezing/going hungry/becoming homeless.

What's the Queen got to do with that? There are plenty of wealthy folks who manage to successfully preserve and hand down that wealth.

Or are you suggesting raising funds by selling of the Crown estate to Saudi? The royal art collection to Elon Musk? I'm sure we'll look back on losing those with pride.

Alternatively we could look at putting the blame where it lies... which is government policy around taxation, energy security, housebuilding standards, minimum wages, etc... Years of Tory rule have placed us where we are.

Well, one reason I don't spend a lot of time worrying about the monarchy day to day is because I feel that they are a bit of an easy and obvious target with extremely ostentatious displays of wealth (yes I know, crown estate etc), whereas some possibly greater and more significant injustices are less easy to see. But I was speaking in a one-day historical sense rather than saying it should happen. But God I'm repeating myself a lot here, people have entirely legitimate reasons to be angry and upset even if you don't agree with them. The same argument can go the other way but at the moment I'm generally more concerned with the feelings of people who don't have almost the entire media and force of the state behind them.

spot on disco. There's something in the air and people are going to be looking for an outlet. The more outlets that get plugged up the more pressure will build in the next one.

It's not a considered, deliberate, step by step logical process where people say "well I won't be angry at this particular thing because I think you'll find in Article 6 of the Convention of Succession there is actually a sub clause that clearly delineates between properties owned by the Crown and properties appropriated by the Crown and actually I think you'll find that that ought to reassure you that there are actually provisions in place" because they'll be too busy setting fire to sh.t.

which, of course, will be annoying.

I hope you're right. The people of the UK have been frustratingly supine for too long. Hopefully they're starting to see behind the wizard's sleeves.

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 15, 2022 10:42 am

I hope you're right. The people of the UK have been frustratingly supine for too long. Hopefully they're starting to see behind the wizard's sleeves.

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 15, 2022 10:42 am

I hope you're right. The people of the UK have been frustratingly supine for too long. Hopefully they're starting to see behind the wizard's sleeves.

As long as they’re not trying to look up the wizard’s sleeves.

I'll happily admit I'm stick to the back teeth of all the TV coverage... how many hours of reporting are necessary for people walking past a coffin?

I'm trying to catch up on other news events at lunchtime and every news channel is covering this with up to the minute assessments of the size of the queue.

I can easily see how this is enraging republicans when it's also severely pissing me of as a moderate royalist*

*which I define as someone who thinks the current set-up, whilst not being ideal, isn't broke enough to fix anytime soon

TopBadger wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 15, 2022 2:31 pm

I'll happily admit I'm stick to the back teeth of all the TV coverage... how many hours of reporting are necessary for people walking past a coffin?

If you haven't quite had enough of it:-

Live stream of a box being a box

Your* welcome.

I might have been watching too much of The Capture but they could be showing the same 30 seconds on loop and we'd be none the wiser.

John Lydon wishes to distance himself from any Sex Pistols activity which aims to cash in on Queen Elizabeth II's death. The musicians in the band and their management have approved a number of requests against John's wishes on the basis of the majority court-ruling agreement.

In John's view, the timing for endorsing any Sex Pistols requests for commercial gain in connection with 'God Save The Queen' in particular is tasteless and disrespectful to the Queen and her family at this moment in time.

John wrote the lyrics to this historical song, and while he has never supported the monarchy, he feels that the family deserves some respect in this difficult time, as would be expected for any other person or family when someone close to them has died.

https://twitter.com/lydonofficial/statu ... NXsmbln1CQ

From FB.


@curiousIguana
‘Right, everyone. I need to be serious for a moment. Because the greatest thing that ever happened is happening right now.
I don't particularly care either way about the Queen. But the queue? The Queue is a triumph of Britishness. It's incredible.
Just to be clear: I don't mean the purpose of the queue. I don't mean the outpouring of emotion or collective gried or the event at the end and around the queue or the people in the queue. I mean, literally, the queue. The queue itself. It's like something from Douglas Adams.
It is the motherlode of queues. It is art. It is poetry. It is the queue to end all queues. It opened earlier today and is already 2.2 miles long. They will close it if it gets to FIVE MILES. That's a queue that would take TWO HOURS TO WALK at a brisk pace.
It is a queue that goes right through the entirety of London. It has toilets and water points and websites just for The Queue.
You cannot leave The Queue. You cannot get into The Queue further down. You cannot hold places in The Queue. There are wristbands for The Queue.
Once you join The Queue you can expect to be there for days. But you cannot have a chair and a sleeping bag. There is no sleeping in The Queue, for The Queue moves constantly and steadily, day and night. You will be shuffling along at 0.1 miles per hour for days.
There is a YouTube channel, Twitter feed and Instagram page, each giving frequent updates about The Queue. Because the back of The Queue, naturally, keeps moving. To join The Queue requires up to the minute knowledge of where The Queue is now.
The BBC has live coverage of The Queue on BBC One, and a Red Button service showing the front bit of The Queue.
NO ONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD JOIN THE QUEUE AND YET STILL THEY COME. "Oh, it'll only be until 6am on Thursday, we can take soup".
And the end of the queue is a box. You will walk past the box, slowly, but for no more than a minute. Then you will exit into the London drizzle and make your way home.
- Curious Ig

Or, alternatively, it's from https://twitter.com/curiousiguana/statu ... 6028464128

It would be great to see Republicans disrupt the queues (not the actual funeral ceremony), the time is ripe for a change, but we need an instigator.

Yeah the cause of republicanism will be really assisted by a "republicans are c.nts" narrative

El Pollo Diablo wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 15, 2022 7:02 pm

Yeah the cause of republicanism will be really assisted by a "republicans are c.nts" narrative

Hey, it's working really well for environmentalists

You have to be annoying. Really annoying. Not violent.
The question is, where do you draw the line?

Herainestold wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 15, 2022 8:33 pm

You have to be annoying. Really annoying. Not violent.
The question is, where do you draw the line?

Have you seen how annoying I am on here?

And this isn't even me protesting.

I could be a lot more annoying, so people shouldn't tempt me tbqh honest. I hold back on here lol

Stephanie wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 15, 2022 9:53 pm

tbqh honest

shpalman wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 15, 2022 5:58 pm

Or, alternatively, it's from https://twitter.com/curiousiguana/statu ... 6028464128

If it wasn’t for that post I don’t think I’d be aware there was a queue

Grumble wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 15, 2022 10:44 pm

shpalman wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 15, 2022 5:58 pm

Or, alternatively, it's from https://twitter.com/curiousiguana/statu ... 6028464128

If it wasn’t for that post I don’t think I’d be aware there was a queue

Yeah yeah, I saw you pushing in at the front for a gander at a dead old woman in a fancy box. "Wasn't aware there was a queue" pull the other 1 m8