The King

Discussions about serious topics, for serious people
User avatar
Tessa K
Stummy Beige
Posts: 3884
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:07 pm
Location: Closer than you'd like

Re: The King

Post by Tessa K » Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:24 pm

Stranger Mouse wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:18 pm
Tessa K wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:06 pm
Gfamily wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:35 pm
I suspect he would have thought "I could learn Arabic and then read the Quran", called on teachers, spent some time, failed to learn Arabic, and then left it another unfulfilled ambition.
He'll probably just learn how to read a section aloud.
I suspect that’s how Boris Johnson has convinced everyone he’s some super talented polyglot.
His response to Macron recently was in the most appalling child's French.

monkey
Dorkwood
Posts: 1390
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:10 pm

Re: The King

Post by monkey » Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:39 pm

Tessa K wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:24 pm
Stranger Mouse wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:18 pm
Tessa K wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:06 pm


He'll probably just learn how to read a section aloud.
I suspect that’s how Boris Johnson has convinced everyone he’s some super talented polyglot.
His response to Macron recently was in the most appalling child's French.
I'd have thought that studying classics at Oxford he'd have some aptitude at languages, even if he only had to learn dead ones. I guess that was just part of him learning how to blag his way through life.

User avatar
Tessa K
Stummy Beige
Posts: 3884
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:07 pm
Location: Closer than you'd like

Re: The King

Post by Tessa K » Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:25 pm

monkey wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:39 pm
Tessa K wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:24 pm
Stranger Mouse wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:18 pm


I suspect that’s how Boris Johnson has convinced everyone he’s some super talented polyglot.
His response to Macron recently was in the most appalling child's French.
I'd have thought that studying classics at Oxford he'd have some aptitude at languages, even if he only had to learn dead ones. I guess that was just part of him learning how to blag his way through life.
When you study dead languages you rarely have to speak them.

As part of my French degree we covered mediaeval French. I could read it fluently back then but never spoke it.

User avatar
Stranger Mouse
After Pie
Posts: 1783
Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2019 1:23 pm

Re: The King

Post by Stranger Mouse » Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:29 pm

An update to that viral “police brutality” video that is going around

https://twitter.com/sherpaginseng/statu ... ycdmZIkU4A
I’ve decided I should be on the pardon list if that’s still in the works

User avatar
wilsontown
Clardic Fug
Posts: 181
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:51 am

Re: The King

Post by wilsontown » Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:18 pm

To be fair, Arabic is really, really hard. At least if you start off knowing English. It works completely differently.

I spent a few years going to Egypt quite a bit for fieldwork, and I could eventually speak some useful phrases and understand a bit, but I couldn't read or write a word.
"All models are wrong but some are useful" - George Box

User avatar
Stranger Mouse
After Pie
Posts: 1783
Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2019 1:23 pm

Re: The King

Post by Stranger Mouse » Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:50 pm

wilsontown wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:18 pm
To be fair, Arabic is really, really hard. At least if you start off knowing English. It works completely differently.

I spent a few years going to Egypt quite a bit for fieldwork, and I could eventually speak some useful phrases and understand a bit, but I couldn't read or write a word.
I think the point is more than he and his supporters exaggerate his linguistic achievements rather than criticism of his actual level
I’ve decided I should be on the pardon list if that’s still in the works

User avatar
wilsontown
Clardic Fug
Posts: 181
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:51 am

Re: The King

Post by wilsontown » Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:01 pm

Yes, that's probably fair. You wouldn't be getting to the point of reading the Qur'an in the original, as a native English speaker, without many years of full-time study. I would doubt that he's got the time. Any pretence otherwise would be just that.
"All models are wrong but some are useful" - George Box

User avatar
Gfamily
Light of Blast
Posts: 4279
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:00 pm
Location: NW England

Re: The King

Post by Gfamily » Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:11 pm

Stranger Mouse wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:50 pm
wilsontown wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:18 pm
To be fair, Arabic is really, really hard. At least if you start off knowing English. It works completely differently.

I spent a few years going to Egypt quite a bit for fieldwork, and I could eventually speak some useful phrases and understand a bit, but I couldn't read or write a word.
I think the point is more than he and his supporters exaggerate his linguistic achievements rather than criticism of his actual level
That would accord with the opinion given here
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017 ... went-wrong
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!

User avatar
EACLucifer
After Pie
Posts: 2415
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:49 am
Location: Behind you

Re: The King

Post by EACLucifer » Mon Sep 19, 2022 9:00 pm

wilsontown wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:01 pm
Yes, that's probably fair. You wouldn't be getting to the point of reading the Qur'an in the original, as a native English speaker, without many years of full-time study. I would doubt that he's got the time. Any pretence otherwise would be just that.
Apparently*, it's pretty difficult to get started even as a native Arabic speaker if one comes from a region where the dialect is quite far from classical Arabic.


*Source; a couple of people wot I have known over the years.

User avatar
EACLucifer
After Pie
Posts: 2415
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:49 am
Location: Behind you

Re: The King

Post by EACLucifer » Mon Sep 19, 2022 9:03 pm

Stranger Mouse wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:29 pm
An update to that viral “police brutality” video that is going around

https://twitter.com/sherpaginseng/statu ... ycdmZIkU4A
The original post was by Lowkey, a delusional conspiracy theorist, antisemite, and all-round a..eh.le.

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Princess POW
Posts: 9623
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: The King

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Sep 19, 2022 9:09 pm

Yeah, it'd be pretty funny if he spent ages learning Moroccan, got quite good at it, and only then realised he still couldn't understand the Koran.
We have the right to a clean, healthy, sustainable environment.

Allo V Psycho
Catbabel
Posts: 672
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:18 am

Re: The King

Post by Allo V Psycho » Wed Sep 21, 2022 3:28 pm

Shall we have a sweep on how long it takes for the 'Faculty of Homoeopathy' of which he is Royal Patron to become the Royal College of Homoeopathy? "On the advice of his ministers', of course.

IvanV
Dorkwood
Posts: 1451
Joined: Mon May 17, 2021 11:12 am

Re: The King

Post by IvanV » Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:43 am

EACLucifer wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 9:00 pm
wilsontown wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:01 pm
Yes, that's probably fair. You wouldn't be getting to the point of reading the Qur'an in the original, as a native English speaker, without many years of full-time study. I would doubt that he's got the time. Any pretence otherwise would be just that.
Apparently*, it's pretty difficult to get started even as a native Arabic speaker if one comes from a region where the dialect is quite far from classical Arabic.
The use of the term "Arabic" is kind of as if Italian, Spanish, French, Portuguese, Rumanian, etc, were all called "Latin". Or Russian, Czech, Polish, Serbian, etc, were all called "Slavonic". Though since various large empires in the large regions where Arabs live existed more recently than the western Roman empire, they probably had more cross-contact and hence a bit less divergence than the decendants of Latin.

Then "reading the Qur'an" for a modern Arab speaker is like a modern speaker of such "Latin" trying to understand the Latin Vulgate Bible or Liturgy. The Vulgate is about 250 yrs older than the Qur'an, which from this distance is a fairly small difference. It is indeed harder to understand Roman Latin if you are Rumanian or French, but it is far from straightforward for an Italian from the Lazio region. But even the more recent Old Church Slavonic, used by Cyril and Methodius to translate the bible in the 9th century, is pretty much unintelligible to speakers of modern Slavonic languages. Fortunately for the Slavonic speakers, of various denominations, a lot of religious texts were later updated to a standard "Church Slavonic" of about the 14th-15th century, which is not quite as remote. Though it is still the same common "Church Slavonic" text you are given to read whether you are Serbian or Russian, etc, though the orthography is updated to the local modern orthography.

When typical Muslims are taught to "read the Qur'an", what this means is, learning the craft of reciting the words you see in front of you. This is typically achieved through memorisation. Memorising the Qur'an is a valued craft in Islam. People who have been "taught to read the Qur'an" have not necessarily learned to read. As recently as 100 years ago it was still common for schools in Egypt to teach people to "read the Qur'an", but not teach people to read. Might be dangerous if they could actually read. These days people do also learn to read. And so if their reading language uses Arabic script, so they may be able to observe the letters in the text before them, as a literate Spaniard can observe the letters of the Latin text before them, and in effect learn how to interpret the actual letters of the text. So many modern "readers of the Qur'an" will be able to read it off the text in front of them, or at least take cues from that text, rather than entirely memorising it. Nor have "readers of the Qur'an" generally been taught to understand Classical Arabic in general. They are generally provided with an modern language interpretation of the text they have learned to recite, not a translation of it. And that interpretation will be coloured by the particular religious tradition of the teacher. Again, might be dangerous if they could actually understand it literally, at least that is why the Catholic Church refused to allow the translation of the bible into the vernacular for so long.

User avatar
Martin Y
Stummy Beige
Posts: 2637
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:08 pm

Re: The King

Post by Martin Y » Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:06 pm

plodder wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:43 am
Tessa K wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:30 am
Now that we're no longer Elizabethans, what are we? Carolingians?
Huh? We’ve never called ourselves Elizabethans, that’s for the prats in Blackadder with tights and ruffs.
The only place I ever came across anyone calling themselves Elizabethan was in the Molesworth books, published right at the start of Elizabeth's reign. And I now discover those Molesworth stories began in Punch and were then serialised in a children's magazine called "The Young Elizabethan".

User avatar
Tessa K
Stummy Beige
Posts: 3884
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:07 pm
Location: Closer than you'd like

Re: The King

Post by Tessa K » Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:08 pm

Martin Y wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:06 pm
plodder wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:43 am
Tessa K wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:30 am
Now that we're no longer Elizabethans, what are we? Carolingians?
Huh? We’ve never called ourselves Elizabethans, that’s for the prats in Blackadder with tights and ruffs.
The only place I ever came across anyone calling themselves Elizabethan was in the Molesworth books, published right at the start of Elizabeth's reign. And I now discover those Molesworth stories began in Punch and were then serialised in a children's magazine called "The Young Elizabethan".
I love this place. A flippant remark turns into a series of informed and fascinating responses.

User avatar
EACLucifer
After Pie
Posts: 2415
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:49 am
Location: Behind you

Re: The King

Post by EACLucifer » Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:13 pm

Martin Y wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:06 pm
plodder wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:43 am
Tessa K wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:30 am
Now that we're no longer Elizabethans, what are we? Carolingians?
Huh? We’ve never called ourselves Elizabethans, that’s for the prats in Blackadder with tights and ruffs.
The only place I ever came across anyone calling themselves Elizabethan was in the Molesworth books, published right at the start of Elizabeth's reign. And I now discover those Molesworth stories began in Punch and were then serialised in a children's magazine called "The Young Elizabethan".
As any fule kno

LydiaGwilt
Navel Tan
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu May 05, 2022 12:22 pm

Re: The King

Post by LydiaGwilt » Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:14 pm

Martin Y wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:06 pm
plodder wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:43 am
Tessa K wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:30 am
Now that we're no longer Elizabethans, what are we? Carolingians?
Huh? We’ve never called ourselves Elizabethans, that’s for the prats in Blackadder with tights and ruffs.
The only place I ever came across anyone calling themselves Elizabethan was in the Molesworth books, published right at the start of Elizabeth's reign. And I now discover those Molesworth stories began in Punch and were then serialised in a children's magazine called "The Young Elizabethan".
It was originally the Collins magazine (published by what became Harper Collins). My mother collected them and I have 4-years' worth in folders (1948-52) There are also only about 2 issues of The Young Elizabethan - don't know if it folded or family circumstances intervened. They are dated now, of course, but actually have some very good articles and stories

User avatar
basementer
Dorkwood
Posts: 1400
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:03 pm
Location: 5713, Aotearoa
Contact:

Re: The King

Post by basementer » Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:09 pm

As I said upthread, it was still being published when I was at junior school in the 1960s. By that point it had become simply "Elizabethan".
Money is just a substitute for luck anyway. - Tom Siddell

LydiaGwilt
Navel Tan
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu May 05, 2022 12:22 pm

Re: The King

Post by LydiaGwilt » Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:44 am

Sorry, I did read that, but was interrupted halfway through writing

plodder
Stummy Beige
Posts: 2666
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:50 pm

Re: The King

Post by plodder » Sun Oct 02, 2022 4:54 am

Lol, he’s briefing against Truss already

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... sss-advice

Post Reply