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Re: Rishi Sunak - PM
Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 7:35 am
by Woodchopper
dyqik wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 10:40 pm
El Pollo Diablo wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 4:13 pm
FlammableFlower wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 3:51 pm
There's the perpetual "bring back Boris" a la Nadine Dorries's calls too, but which also seem to pop up every so often in twitter comments from a variety of people (possibly bots).
The general unhingedness of this particular fount of madness is that little more so, seeing as Fucko the Clown isn't even an MP any more.
That's not a complete barrier...
Yes, there’s nothing to stop someone who isn’t an MP from being a party leader. Nigel Farage has led several parties and he has never been elected to the UK parliament.
By convention the Prime Minister has to be an MP,* but Johnson has always been unconventional.
*Yes, some have been in the Lords, but that was a long time ago.
Re: Rishi Sunak - PM
Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 9:03 am
by IvanV
The greater impediment to Johnson Redux would seem to be getting MPs to vote him onto a shortlist of two to present to the membership.
If against all the odds the great majority of MPs who were so angry with him decide to forget all that, and vote him back, I think they'll find a safe seat for him. They did that once before.
But he looks thoroughly out of it now. He is raking it in, and has bought a nice house and all that. Hard to go back to living on a PM's salary.
Re: Rishi Sunak - PM
Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 10:09 am
by Tessa K
IvanV wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2023 9:03 am
The greater impediment to Johnson Redux would seem to be getting MPs to vote him onto a shortlist of two to present to the membership.
If against all the odds the great majority of MPs who were so angry with him decide to forget all that, and vote him back, I think they'll find a safe seat for him. They did that once before.
But he looks thoroughly out of it now. He is raking it in, and has bought a nice house and all that. Hard to go back to living on a PM's salary.
It's not about the salary for him, it's about the status and attention, his image of himself as the new Churchill. His massive f.cking ego needs an audience.
Re: Rishi Sunak - PM
Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 11:58 am
by dyqik
Woodchopper wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2023 7:35 am
dyqik wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 10:40 pm
El Pollo Diablo wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 4:13 pm
The general unhingedness of this particular fount of madness is that little more so, seeing as Fucko the Clown isn't even an MP any more.
That's not a complete barrier...
Yes, there’s nothing to stop someone who isn’t an MP from being a party leader. Nigel Farage has led several parties and he has never been elected to the UK parliament.
By convention the Prime Minister has to be an MP,* but Johnson has always been unconventional.
*Yes, some have been in the Lords, but that was a long time ago.
It's like the dream of Trump supporters that they could nullify elections, and electoral college votes, and instead have congressional representatives of the states vote him as being reelected.
That was more far-fetched, but still attempted.
Re: Rishi Sunak - PM
Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 12:58 pm
by monkey
Johnson can't be chosen as the Tory Leader without being an MP, it's in their rulebook. The 1922 committee can propose a change, but it has to be voted on by the membership. A rule change can also be initiated by a petition with at least 10,000 members, along with a couple of other things like the board. So while he could be given a peerage and become PM (technically), he can't be leader of the party, which would be a good sign that he doesn't command a majority in parliament.
This makes things even more complicated for any idiots who want Johnson back, or who are hoping for Farage.
Re: Rishi Sunak - PM
Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 1:38 pm
by Woodchopper
monkey wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2023 12:58 pm
Johnson can't be chosen as the Tory Leader without being an MP, it's in their rulebook. The 1922 committee can propose a change, but it has to be voted on by the membership. A rule change can also be initiated by a petition with at least 10,000 members, along with a couple of other things like the board. So while he could be given a peerage and become PM (technically), he can't be leader of the party, which would be a good sign that he doesn't command a majority in parliament.
This makes things even more complicated for any idiots who want Johnson back, or who are hoping for Farage.
Good point.
Re: Rishi Sunak - PM
Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 5:55 pm
by dyqik
It's only a convention that the PM is the party leader...
</Rudy Dorries>
Re: Rishi Sunak - PM
Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 7:00 pm
by lpm
Been a while since we've had a fun vote in the Commons.
They've just gone off to the lobbies to vote.
Happy memories of all those Brexit votes...
Re: Rishi Sunak - PM
Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 7:06 pm
by lpm
Hilarious that they've already split the Conservatives into rival factions, squabbling and negotiating and forming temporary alliances.
Sounds like the European Research Group has allied with the Northern Research Group, fighting
the Commons Sense Group and demanding the New Conservatives open up a second front against the Conservative Growth Group.
Even the left has nothing on the Tory PFJ vs JPF.
Re: Rishi Sunak - PM
Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 7:27 pm
by Tessa K
Apparently Sunak spent much time trying to persuade MPs to support him. Threats and career bribery - or am I being cynical?
Re: Rishi Sunak - PM
Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 7:37 pm
by lpm
He might come to regret this win. Means a few more months of this stupidity.
Re: Rishi Sunak - PM
Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 8:51 pm
by Trinucleus
I'm struggling with the idea that there's a common sense group of Tory MPs
Re: Rishi Sunak - PM
Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 9:09 pm
by Fishnut
Trinucleus wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2023 8:51 pm
I'm struggling with the idea that there's a common sense group of Tory MPs
I think they're the group equivalent of countries with 'democratic' in their name
Re: Rishi Sunak - PM
Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 10:35 pm
by Grumble
Trinucleus wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2023 8:51 pm
I'm struggling with the idea that there's a common sense group of Tory MPs
My MP is one of them
Re: Rishi Sunak - PM
Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 10:42 pm
by Fishnut
Grumble wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2023 10:35 pm
Trinucleus wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2023 8:51 pm
I'm struggling with the idea that there's a common sense group of Tory MPs
My MP is one of them
Do MPs have to declare if they're members of these groups? Are there public lists? I seem to remember trying to find out all the members of the ERG (or whatever that group is called) and couldn't find a full list of names
Re: Rishi Sunak - PM
Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 11:17 pm
by Grumble
Fishnut wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2023 10:42 pm
Grumble wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2023 10:35 pm
Trinucleus wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2023 8:51 pm
I'm struggling with the idea that there's a common sense group of Tory MPs
My MP is one of them
Do MPs have to declare if they're members of these groups? Are there public lists? I seem to remember trying to find out all the members of the ERG (or whatever that group is called) and couldn't find a full list of names
No, but he was quite public about it
Re: Rishi Sunak - PM
Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 11:46 pm
by Fishnut
It's the ones who aren't public that worry me. I don't know why they get to keep their membership private. Though tbh I don't understand these groups anyway. Are they a new thing or have there always been them and it's only in recent years that they've become important?
Re: Rishi Sunak - PM
Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2023 12:12 am
by dyqik
Aren't they basically Whatsapp group chats nowadays?
Re: Rishi Sunak - PM
Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2023 9:19 am
by Lew Dolby
I'm old enough to remember the fuss the tories made about Militant and entryism in the Labour party. Can't see how the ERG and the rest are any different but not a peep from the tories or their mates in the press.
Re: Rishi Sunak - PM
Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2023 11:51 am
by IvanV
Trinucleus wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2023 8:51 pm
I'm struggling with the idea that there's a common sense group of Tory MPs
There's the One Nation Conservatives and the Tory Reform Group. The latter calls themselves "the authentic and authoritative voice of moderate, liberal Conservatism throughout the Party. It is the home of the One Nation movement in Britain". So they claim to have that position. But I agree, given what the party has in general done, often with their cooperation, it is a struggle to think whether there really is much left of common sense anywhere in the party.
Re: Rishi Sunak - PM
Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2023 7:54 pm
by Sciolus
FPTP guarantees a two-party system, which means each of those parties needs to contain around 40% of political opinion. So they are broad churches and are likely to have more or less informal sub-parties within them. If we had PR, they would be actual parties forming ad-hoc coalitions rather than the permanent coalitions they are forced into here.
Re: Rishi Sunak - PM
Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2023 8:38 pm
by TimW
How are the Anti-Growth Coalition getting on these days? I haven't heard anything about them for a while.
Re: Rishi Sunak - PM
Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2023 9:26 pm
by jimbob
TimW wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 8:38 pm
How are the Anti-Growth Coalition getting on these days? I haven't heard anything about them for a while.
Well, they are currently in office if not effectively running the country. To riff on a well known phrase that's more appropriate now than when it was coined.
Re: Rishi Sunak - PM
Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2023 7:33 am
by Woodchopper
Sciolus wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 7:54 pm
FPTP guarantees a two-party system, which means each of those parties needs to contain around 40% of political opinion. So they are broad churches and are likely to have more or less informal sub-parties within them. If we had PR, they would be actual parties forming ad-hoc coalitions rather than the permanent coalitions they are forced into here.
Certainly, in other places in Europe the parties look like:
marxist, green, trade union based centre left, pro-business centre right, Christian based centre right, libertarian, populist, racist.
Of course each group could have more than one party.
ETA also minority nationalists in many places but it’s difficult to fit them into a left right political spectrum
Re: Rishi Sunak - PM
Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2023 11:10 am
by FlammableFlower
With Benton losing the whip courtesy of a Times sting around his gambling lobbying, Sunak may have another by-election on his hands.