Mastodon (not heavy metal)

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Woodchopper
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Re: tw.tter

Post by Woodchopper » Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:46 pm

dyqik wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:28 pm
Woodchopper wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:25 pm
dyqik wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:19 pm


Requiring them is not a significant barrier to anything - anyone can set them to expand automatically, so that they don't exist if you don't want them to.
Thanks, I haven’t yet been able to work that out.
On the web interface, it's in the feed preferences at the top right of the feed. In Tusky it's in the appearance preferences. I can't find it in the official app though.
I’ve mostly been using the official mobile app which doesn’t seem to offer that. I’ll look at the web interface.

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Re: tw.tter

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:52 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:23 pm
I just had a look at fediscience and it also requests content warnings for anything people might find upsetting.

I’d be happy if someone could recommend a server.
Easy answer is just to set one up somewhere general like mastodon.social - you can always move the account later anyway.

More useful, there are tools like debirdify and fedifinder that will give you a list of the mastodon handles of all your followers/followees on twitter. You can then see if there's a commonest option amongst people who use twitter similarly to you.

I did that for setting up my "professional" account, which is why I ended up on ecoevo.social. Took about 5 minutes.

It fundamentally doesn't actually matter very much, though, as long as you can post what you want, as you can see everyone's posts anyway. The only benefit to being on a domain-specific one is that I can also choose to scroll through my "local timeline", which is just posts from the same server as me, mostly eco/evo biologists chatting about stuff. But I can also look at the "global timeline" and see people from all over the shop - amongst my follows, various science, scicomm, policy and green servers, as well as country-specific ones etc.
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Re: Mastodon (not heavy metal)

Post by EACLucifer » Fri Nov 18, 2022 1:36 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:44 pm
EACLucifer wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:31 pm
I feel the need to point out we already have a Mastodon thread :roll:
Just moved the ones that were clearly Mastodon-specific over here. If I've missed any, feel free to report, folks.
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Re: Mastodon (not heavy metal)

Post by Imrael » Fri Nov 18, 2022 2:29 pm

Also a Mastodon newbie (sanehamster@Dice.camp) but thinking lists are good and may be (for me) a key to usabliity. You can list people, servers or hashtags, and set them up as a column in the web client "advanced mode".

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Woodchopper
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Re: tw.tter

Post by Woodchopper » Fri Nov 18, 2022 2:55 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:52 pm
Woodchopper wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:23 pm
I just had a look at fediscience and it also requests content warnings for anything people might find upsetting.

I’d be happy if someone could recommend a server.
Easy answer is just to set one up somewhere general like mastodon.social - you can always move the account later anyway.
I've got a personal account for browsing shitposts and I've applied to join an academic server (I'm waiting for them to check my identity).
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:52 pm
More useful, there are tools like debirdify and fedifinder that will give you a list of the mastodon handles of all your followers/followees on twitter. You can then see if there's a commonest option amongst people who use twitter similarly to you.
I tried that but hardly any of them showed up.
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:52 pm
It fundamentally doesn't actually matter very much, though, as long as you can post what you want, as you can see everyone's posts anyway. The only benefit to being on a domain-specific one is that I can also choose to scroll through my "local timeline", which is just posts from the same server as me, mostly eco/evo biologists chatting about stuff. But I can also look at the "global timeline" and see people from all over the shop - amongst my follows, various science, scicomm, policy and green servers, as well as country-specific ones etc.
I quite like the local timeline for my personal account. I'm a bit nervous of the global timeline.

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Woodchopper
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Re: Mastodon (not heavy metal)

Post by Woodchopper » Fri Nov 18, 2022 7:13 pm

I’ve installed the Toot! app. It’s much better than the official app.

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Re: Mastodon (not heavy metal)

Post by Brightonian » Fri Nov 18, 2022 9:19 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 7:13 pm
I’ve installed the Toot! app. It’s much better than the official app.
Unfortunately only on iOS which uncools like me don't have. :|

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Re: Mastodon (not heavy metal)

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri Nov 18, 2022 9:25 pm

Brightonian wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 9:19 pm
Woodchopper wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 7:13 pm
I’ve installed the Toot! app. It’s much better than the official app.
Unfortunately only on iOS which uncools like me don't have. :|
Tusky on Android is decent.

Think the official apps aren't quite finished yet.
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Re: Mastodon (not heavy metal)

Post by Woodchopper » Fri Nov 18, 2022 9:33 pm

Probably some of this going on.
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Re: Mastodon (not heavy metal)

Post by sTeamTraen » Mon Nov 21, 2022 10:36 am

Nobody could have predicted this.

The best-known Mastodon server, owned by the guy who runs the codebase for the entire network, just took down a post that would, I think it's fair to say, have been considered run-of-the-mill on Twitter.

I guess what may have happened is that a German idea of what constitutes racism is being applied. Germany is a bit sensitive about the whole race issue due to, um, reasons, and so I can easily imagine that being snarky about white people would be considered to cross that line, in a way that it might not in the US.

It will be interesting to see if servers start blocking mastodon.social for "not doing enough to fight actual racism". (I doubt it, but perhaps one or two of the more right-on server sysadmins will make some kind of protest.)

This is the highest-profile complaint about moderation that I've seen, but there does seem to be a wider issue with what we of this parish might call the "Nazi mod c.nt" culture of Mastodon, or at least the perception thereof.
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Re: Mastodon (not heavy metal)

Post by dyqik » Mon Nov 21, 2022 10:59 am

I doubt there anything going on the except that a small service is massively overwhelmed by a sudden surge in new arrivals, so while the reporting and modding culture worked ok with small numbers, but now there's an influx of bad faith reporters it doesn't work as well anymore.

It takes time to hire and train mods. There will be problems as the network grows.

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Re: Mastodon (not heavy metal)

Post by dyqik » Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:33 am

More context: the admin quickly discussed this mod decision with the author, explained how the mistake was made (the post was reported as an antisemitic dog whistle, because of the reference to rich old white men, and the report handled by a new mod on their first day), how they would try to prevent it happening again and reinstated the post. Sometime that would never happen on Twitter, Facebook, etc

https://twitter.com/mmasnick/status/159 ... 9Ng3w&s=19

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Re: Mastodon (not heavy metal)

Post by sTeamTraen » Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:54 am

But that explanation just shifts the issue along a bit. Is the phrase "Rich white men" (a) always, (b) never, or (c) sometimes an anti-semitic dog-whistle? If (c) and it depends on context, who determines that, and what level of understanding of the history of anti-semitism do they need to have? If (b), fine, but then what happens when someone tweaks it a bit to move it along the continuum, eg by including the word "bankers" — which in much of the world means "Jews", but for example in the UK often just means "rich tw.ts in the City" without any antisemitic intent? (The main issue here is not the specific but the meta; I don't claim expertise in anti-semitic tropes.)
dyqik wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 10:59 am
It takes time to hire and train mods. There will be problems as the network grows.
Even if you can find an ever-increasing number of first-level mods to work on a volunteer basis to do the easy stuff (e.g., "f.ck you, <slur>"), hiring/recruiting and training them requires people with qualifications and experience. At some point you will have to start paying people. The day a server does that, it becomes a company. Eugen has sensibly registered himself as Mastodon GmbH, but most cooperative/community servers won't want to do that. (And of course it will require a stable revenue stream. I don't know if the ethos of Mastodon allows a server to accept advertising or other forms of sponsorship, but I don't think that the occasional $5 tip-jar contribution will be what makes it possible.)

It reminds me of the charity sector. People love to complain about the salaries of the CEOs of charities, but you can only scale 100% volunteer labour up so far (typically not very far).
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Re: Mastodon (not heavy metal)

Post by dyqik » Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:57 am

sTeamTraen wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:54 am
But that explanation just shifts the issue along a bit. Is the phrase "Rich white men" (a) always, (b) never, or (c) sometimes an anti-semitic dog-whistle? If (c) and it depends on context, who determines that, and what level of understanding of the history of anti-semitism do they need to have? If (b), fine, but then what happens when someone tweaks it a bit to move it along the continuum, eg by including the word "bankers" — which in much of the world means "Jews", but for example in the UK often just means "rich tw.ts in the City" without any antisemitic intent? (The main issue here is not the specific but the meta; I don't claim expertise in anti-semitic tropes.)
I think you are thinking far too hard about what was clearly a mistake, and quickly rectified. It's ok to make mistakes, as long as you fix them and try to avoid them again.

You can't do that with prescriptive rules as envisioned by your questions here.

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Re: Mastodon (not heavy metal)

Post by discovolante » Mon Nov 21, 2022 12:49 pm

Welcome to the world of Internet forum moderation, lol.

I don't quite get the charity sector comment mind seeing as there are a lot of charity employees well below the level of CEO both in seniority and pay grade (ok I am being a bit deliberate obtuse but still, come on mate!)
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Re: Mastodon (not heavy metal)

Post by sTeamTraen » Mon Nov 21, 2022 4:28 pm

discovolante wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 12:49 pm
Welcome to the world of Internet forum moderation, lol.
I've been thinking about what is different with the Nazi mod c.nts here. I think there are two main differences:
- The Mastodon takedown notice was basically the same as a Twitter one. Mod clicks "delete", selects one or two "reason" checkboxes, moves on.
- There was no indication of any appeal process. In the end the post did get appealed, but (only?) after viral embarrassment for the server (on Twitter, ironically.

Moderation here seems to be pretty light-touch, but also, when the mods do intervene, they usually explain in detail what the problem was and they are contactable directly.

So perhaps one way Mastodon can improve on Twitter is by making moderation more detailed, if time permits and if it seems appropriate. "f.ck off <slur>" probably doesn't need it, but "I wonder if you aren't maybe being anti-semitic" could usefully be explained. (How many of the spectators worked out that antisemitism was the ostensible reason for the deletion in this case?)
discovolante wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 12:49 pm
I don't quite get the charity sector comment mind seeing as there are a lot of charity employees well below the level of CEO both in seniority and pay grade (ok I am being a bit deliberate obtuse but still, come on mate!)
I probably shouldn't have just mentioned the CEO. But when people want to have a pop at a charity, the CEO's salary is usually what gets wheeled out to prove that "it's all a racket". Of course, plenty of people make a legitimate living working for charities because raising and spending money can't generally be done on a goodwill basis, certainly not at scale.🙏
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Re: Mastodon (not heavy metal)

Post by sTeamTraen » Mon Nov 21, 2022 4:33 pm

dyqik wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:57 am
I think you are thinking far too hard about what was clearly a mistake, and quickly rectified. It's ok to make mistakes, as long as you fix them and try to avoid them again.

You can't do that with prescriptive rules as envisioned by your questions here.
This may be of interest. tl;dr:
- Gargron (Eugen) seems to be quite a controversial figure.
- Second-order "who bans whom" debates are a thing (here, "We block mstdn.io because they don't remove fascist content to the extent that we would like, but mastodon.social still federates with mstdn.io, and that's a problem"). This will not, I suggest, become a smaller problem over time.
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Re: Mastodon (not heavy metal)

Post by Woodchopper » Mon Nov 21, 2022 4:57 pm

sTeamTraen wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 4:28 pm
discovolante wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 12:49 pm
Welcome to the world of Internet forum moderation, lol.
I've been thinking about what is different with the Nazi mod c.nts here. I think there are two main differences:
- The Mastodon takedown notice was basically the same as a Twitter one. Mod clicks "delete", selects one or two "reason" checkboxes, moves on.
- There was no indication of any appeal process. In the end the post did get appealed, but (only?) after viral embarrassment for the server (on Twitter, ironically.

Moderation here seems to be pretty light-touch, but also, when the mods do intervene, they usually explain in detail what the problem was and they are contactable directly.

So perhaps one way Mastodon can improve on Twitter is by making moderation more detailed, if time permits and if it seems appropriate. "f.ck off <slur>" probably doesn't need it, but "I wonder if you aren't maybe being anti-semitic" could usefully be explained. (How many of the spectators worked out that antisemitism was the ostensible reason for the deletion in this case?)
The key thing here is that we’ve got three mods and three site owners for a population of about a hundred active users or so. (Just my guess). Added to that, no one will lose any money as a result of and decisions we make.

It would be enormously harder to do the kind of modding you see here with a much larger number of users and a small number of volunteer part-time mods.

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Re: Mastodon (not heavy metal)

Post by monkey » Mon Nov 21, 2022 5:07 pm

I don't pay much attention to reddit, but don't they rely on volunteer mods? Facebook groups too. Some of those can be huge.

I suppose they have professionals backing them up, unlike here and mastodon. But it's not like volunteer modding can't be done for large networks.

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Re: Mastodon (not heavy metal)

Post by Woodchopper » Mon Nov 21, 2022 5:31 pm

monkey wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 5:07 pm
I don't pay much attention to reddit, but don't they rely on volunteer mods? Facebook groups too. Some of those can be huge.
True, but at least in my experience mods on the larger subreddits just take down posts they don’t like and don’t spend time explaining their decisions.
monkey wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 5:07 pm
I suppose they have professionals backing them up, unlike here and mastodon. But it's not like volunteer modding can't be done for large networks.
It can work, I just doubt it could be done with the level of interaction we have here.

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Re: Mastodon (not heavy metal)

Post by sTeamTraen » Mon Nov 21, 2022 6:35 pm

monkey wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 5:07 pm
I don't pay much attention to reddit, but don't they rely on volunteer mods? Facebook groups too. Some of those can be huge.

I suppose they have professionals backing them up, unlike here and mastodon. But it's not like volunteer modding can't be done for large networks.
In my experience on other sites, that how it works. The corp appoints volunteer mods on a "best effort" basis and they are supervised, with a more or less light touch, by people who are paid.
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Re: Mastodon (not heavy metal)

Post by sTeamTraen » Mon Nov 21, 2022 6:41 pm

sTeamTraen wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 4:33 pm
This may be of interest. tl;dr:
- Gargron (Eugen) seems to be quite a controversial figure.
- Second-order "who bans whom" debates are a thing (here, "We block mstdn.io because they don't remove fascist content to the extent that we would like, but mastodon.social still federates with mstdn.io, and that's a problem"). This will not, I suggest, become a smaller problem over time.
It turns out that the instance of which the author of the Patreon post linked there is a member — and, I infer, part of the leadership — already blocks (or "limits"; I'm not sure what that means, relative to a total block) mastodon.social, precisely for one of these second-order questions.

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Re: Mastodon (not heavy metal)

Post by nekomatic » Mon Nov 21, 2022 7:40 pm

sTeamTraen wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 4:33 pm
This will not, I suggest, become a smaller problem over time.
Yeah, from what I’ve seen of it so far I very much agree.

Re Reddit, isn’t that essentially lots of sub-communities, where each community will probably have enough people deeply invested in it to put their spare time into moderating it (a bit like here)? I’m not sure how well that applies to the ‘everyone talking to everyone’ model of Twitter. How strongly does an average Mastodon user identify with the particular instance they use?
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Re: Mastodon (not heavy metal)

Post by Grumble » Mon Nov 21, 2022 7:41 pm

Is truth.social essentially a mastodon instance?
A bit churlish

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Re: Mastodon (not heavy metal)

Post by dyqik » Mon Nov 21, 2022 7:45 pm

Grumble wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 7:41 pm
Is truth.social essentially a mastodon instance?
Sort of. It runs on Mastodon based source code, but does not even attempt to federate with anyone, so it's not a Mastodon social network instance. It's a Mastodon instance in the same way that it's a Linux instance and an Apache (probably) instance, and that we are a phpBB instance.

I think Gab and Parler are also in that category.

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