Re: FTX
Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:21 pm
Bit cumbersome to use privately traded stocks as a currency though, no? You're being a bit too stubborn here, you're not making the point you think you are.
Bit cumbersome to use privately traded stocks as a currency though, no? You're being a bit too stubborn here, you're not making the point you think you are.
Which is why this thread is nominally about FTX, and not plodder's vendetta against a stable paycheck.bjn wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:12 pmIt doesn't bypass banks because distributed ledgers are dreadful at what they do. So on the whole you have to trade on an exchange, which is effectively a bank.plodder wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:08 pmThey need a stock exchange, crypto is potentially independent.dyqik wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:25 am
What problem does that solve, and what problems does it introduce?
Note that you do not need crypto to cut out the central banks. You can just use stocks, commodities, precious metals, etc. as currency. Or issue non-crypto specie. You could use beanie babies if you want.
It introduces lots of problems, and solves things you may not think are problems. Bypassing banks is seen as a potential solution to the problem of the established financial elites who spin our money for their gain. I'm not a huge proponent of crypto so I'm not here to argue strongly for it, other than to say there is an argument to be made and it might be interesting to have it instead of a stonewall pig headed refusal to engage.
The clumsiness is also a feature of non-exchange crypto, which is part of my point.
Neither do banks. I’ve just sold a van, I chucked in a bike rack to sweeten the deal. I would have been happy to accept a mixture of used banknotes and BACS. That’s three currencies right there, in one transaction. No reason why crypto couldn’t have been one of them and no need to have one type take over from all the others.dyqik wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:25 pmThe clumsiness is also a feature of non-exchange crypto, which is part of my point.
The main point is that you need government backing and guarantees for currency exchanges to work quickly and reliably. And that crypto cannot keep up with all the transactions that the modern world needs without exchanges and banks, and a day to day fiat currency.
They will have said the same about the whole faff of minting coins or printing banknotes, a point I made earlier.
What was the role of central banks and government regulation of money in either Gulf War? I am engaging here, I genuinely want to understand this.
Bearer notes were largely introduced to because of the transaction, transport and security costs and hence lack of scalability of bullion currency. Printing notes was easier than ensuring trustworthy bullion coins. Bearer notes did introduce a significant improvement on the transport costs and fraud costs over bullion currency, which is heavy, can be fenced for the value by weight of the material, and needs an assayer to assure honesty.
The argument would be that it's an indirect link, something along the lines that the elites maintain their position by (amongst other things) chiseling away at the rest of us through a financial system that directly enriches them and maintains their position. With this guaranteed, they then act like a..eholes with absolute impunity. So by undermining the financial system (i.e. established banks etc) we also undermine the shriveled evil bastards that pull the strings and make us pay for their greed. So it ought to help with things like invasions to control oil fields that result in privatisation of whole economies to the c.nts whose idea it was.
Your point being what, lpm? That the people who manage the financial systems use it to enrich themselves? You're now agreeing with me?lpm wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 2:14 pmThe weirdest bit is how you say stuff like "the established financial elites who spin our money for their gain" and "the elites chisel away at the rest of us through a financial system that directly enriches them and maintains their position. With this guaranteed, they then act like a..eholes with absolute impunity".
Which perfectly fits the crypto elites and the financial system they've rigged to directly enrich themselves.
I'm not sure how much more obvious it can be, what with crypto billionaires dying in private helicopter crashes and falling out of penthouse windows.
They're not the worst by a long way. They're just operating in front of the curtain, because they haven't taken over the curtain yet. The key concept you appear to be missing is that in theory crypto doesn't need anyone to control it. That may be a dreadful idea but it may also help shrug off the worst of the grasping bastards.
Excepting, or course, those blessed thugs right at the top of the tree.lpm wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:32 pmIt's very fact that it doesn't have anyone to control it that hands over dominance to the worst of the grasping bastards. Organised crime, thieves, neo-nazis, money launderers.
In human societies whenever there's no control and no regulation it's the bullies and spivs who thrive.
That's not an argument though, that's a few broadly stated generalisations connected by hand-waving. Rich people are powerful; powerful people get rich. That's not in dispute. There are many rich and powerful people other than bankers though - I thought the popular explanation of the Gulf war(s) is that they were fought to protect the interests of oil companies and defence contractors, not bankers. Can you go into some detail on any of these ways in which we're 'chiselled away at'? The two obvious ones to me would be interest payments on overinflated house values, and taxpayer bailouts for banks that failed because their nominal assets turned out not to be worth what they said they were. Both of those look to me like problems of under-regulation of money and finance, not over-regulation. Or will crypto enable people to buy houses and businesses to raise capital and offset risk and all that jazz in some way that doesn't need banks or equivalent parties? If so, how?plodder wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 1:44 pmThe argument would be that it's an indirect link, something along the lines that the elites maintain their position by (amongst other things) chiseling away at the rest of us through a financial system that directly enriches them and maintains their position. With this guaranteed, they then act like a..eholes with absolute impunity. So by undermining the financial system (i.e. established banks etc) we also undermine the shriveled evil bastards that pull the strings and make us pay for their greed. So it ought to help with things like invasions to control oil fields
The economic history of the last 3000 years shows that increased financial and business freedom has always been associated with increasing inequality. Though, of course, if one starts from a largely subsistence society, where life is nasty brutish and short, that inevitably has low levels of inequality, else the unequal would die, then it is very difficult to have any kind of growth away from that unpleasant situation without some inevitable increase in inequality.nekomatic wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:00 pmCan you go into some detail on any of these ways in which we're 'chiselled away at'? The two obvious ones to me would be interest payments on overinflated house values, and taxpayer bailouts for banks that failed because their nominal assets turned out not to be worth what they said they were. Both of those look to me like problems of under-regulation of money and finance, not over-regulation. Or will crypto enable people to buy houses and businesses to raise capital and offset risk and all that jazz in some way that doesn't need banks or equivalent parties? If so, how?
That's the same kind of reasoning that supports Plato's philosopher kings. But in reality we have seen many rulers who were dictators ruling extremely harshly for their own benefit. The need for strong central leadership is an illusion. This is why we now have somewhat democratic rule in many places - distributing the control as widely as possible.lpm wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:32 pmIt's very fact that it doesn't have anyone to control it that hands over dominance to the worst of the grasping bastards. Organised crime, thieves, neo-nazis, money launderers.
In human societies whenever there's no control and no regulation it's the bullies and spivs who thrive.