Indecision 2024

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IvanV
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Re: Indecision 2024

Post by IvanV » Tue Feb 27, 2024 5:16 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2024 4:49 pm
An interesting perspective
In our paper, we find class politics remains important to understanding changes in party membership. Specifically, when it comes to distributional policies, less-educated individuals prefer “predistribution” (e.g., labor market interventions such as the minimum wage, unions, protectionism, trade policies, and public employment) and well-educated individuals prefer “redistribution” (tax and transfer spending), policies that could be seen as compensating the “losers” of market liberalization or trade opening. The Democratic Party’s shift towards redistribution over predistribution helps explain its loss of less-educated voters. Using more than 200 historical polling datasets asking opinions about policies dating back to the 1940s, we show that this relationship between education and economic policy preferences is stable and shows no change even as less-educated voters stop identifying with the Democratic Party.
[…]
Thank you for presenting this, which as you say is a very interesting perspective.

I think we can understand why the kind of people who might see themselves as being potentially in receipt of transfer spending from time to time would prefer to have their economic security maintained by other kinds of measures. At the same time, some of those labour market interventions can act as a restraint on production and markets, and deprecated for that reason by others.

But I tend to think of more conservative parties having even less taste for "predistribution" than centrist/leftists, even if the latter have less taste for it than formerly.

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Re: Indecision 2024

Post by Gfamily » Tue Feb 27, 2024 5:18 pm

Al Capone Junior wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2024 4:41 pm
I hate to have to say this out loud, but we need a popular, liberal celebrity to step up here. Taylor Swift for president! :shock: :shock: :shock:
Would she be eligible as she's not 35 until after the election date? Or would it be OK because she would be 35 at the time of the inauguration?
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Re: Indecision 2024

Post by dyqik » Tue Feb 27, 2024 5:23 pm

Gfamily wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2024 5:18 pm
Al Capone Junior wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2024 4:41 pm
I hate to have to say this out loud, but we need a popular, liberal celebrity to step up here. Taylor Swift for president! :shock: :shock: :shock:
Would she be eligible as she's not 35 until after the election date? Or would it be OK because she would be 35 at the time of the inauguration?
She wouldn't become president until the inauguration, so there'd be no problem.

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Re: Indecision 2024

Post by dyqik » Wed Feb 28, 2024 6:05 pm

Trump doesn't seem to have the money to put up a bond to appeal the civil case against him in NY, nor the second Carroll case.

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Re: Indecision 2024

Post by IvanV » Wed Feb 28, 2024 11:02 pm

dyqik wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2024 6:05 pm
Trump doesn't seem to have the money to put up a bond to appeal the civil case against him in NY, nor the second Carroll case.
He admitted to having only $100m to hand in liquid assets to put up as security for a bond.

He went in front of an appeal court judge, to try and say that $100m is enough, when he has all this very valuable real estate that's not going anywhere, and can be liquidated in due course if required. A court-appointed monitor would be put in place to ensure that it didn't go anywhere.

Which is actually very funny, when you remember the case found him guilty of grossly exaggerating the value of his properties. Thankfully the appeal court judge was not senile,* so didn't fall for that one.

But the appeal judge did seem to find it unfair that he might have all these illiquid assets he could potentially raise funds on, but couldn't because Engoron banned him from raising funds. He is hardly going to be able to sell such large things in just a couple of weeks. So the appeal judge has temporarily relieved him of Engoron's ban on him borrowing money, so that potentially he can borrow against the value of his properties to put up the bond, if he can persuade financiers the collateral is good enough. He still has two or three weeks to try and do that.

So I think crunch time hasn't quite arrived on this one yet.


*For an example of someone suffering from a senile NY judge who couldn't understand the reasonably obvious, see Bill Browder's book Freezing Order, about the Magnitsky affair and Browder's eventual success in legally exposing at least a small part of the money laundering by the Russian kleptocracy. It's a good read, but I would have preferred a bit more precision and a bit less excitement.

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Re: Indecision 2024

Post by lpm » Wed Feb 28, 2024 11:27 pm

But SCOTUS has given him a major win, by delaying hearings on immunity to such an unnecessary degree.
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Re: Indecision 2024

Post by Chris Preston » Thu Feb 29, 2024 7:13 am

Illinois does not want Trump on the ballot either.
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Re: Indecision 2024

Post by IvanV » Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:27 am

lpm wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2024 11:27 pm
But SCOTUS has given him a major win, by delaying hearings on immunity to such an unnecessary degree.
Certainly the arithmetic of timing (Guardian) that results from SCOTUS's timing means that we can now see clearly it is impossible for the election interference court case to be completed before the election. Key arithmetical factors are that Trump has a right to an 87 days of his remaining "defence preparation time" once SCOTUS has ruled before the trial starts. And then the practical deadline is not the election, but 60 days before the election, as "politically sensitive" trials may not proceed during that 60 days.

So we can now see clearly that Trump has succeeded in delaying this case sufficiently. But I would say that was always likely. It was always a tricky scramble for this case to be completed. When you look at the arithmetic above, even if SCOTUS had heard it more quickly, it probably still wouldn't have finished. Even if the case did go to trial before the election purdah period, he'd still have opportunities to appeal. We now know that he doesn't need that, but that's the reality. If Trump loses and the case against him proceeds, I think it will be well into Biden's second term before this case and its appeals terminate.

SCOTUS says hearings will start on 26 April. Is eight weeks notice in any way slow for the supreme court in a typical case? Doesn't sound like it to me. It sounds quite normal. Indeed I'd guess it is probably quicker than most cases they agree to hear, though I'm guessing and maybe someone can correct me. Clearly there is potential to expedite cases if there is great urgency, as might happen in some argument over a dying person. But SCOTUS already turned down a request from the Federal Prosecutor to expedite the case. So I think that battle was already lost, and frankly I didn't believe that Smith would get what he asked for when he asked. They were not going to do it quickly. It has been enough for them simply not to do it conspicuously slowly.

And this is a very important case for the long-term legal precedent of the US. There is a sense it would be wrong to hurry over it, much as many would find that convenient at just this moment.

SCOTUS did not have to order that the Fed case should stop to await the judgment. But they did. Of course they did, we didn't realistically expect them not to.

Do I believe that the SCOTUS has done what it could to slow this down? Well they certainly haven't done anything to speed it up. And do I think that was partisan? Yes I do. But SCOTUS is partisan. And I don't think they have behaved in some conspicuously unusual and slow way, given the importance of the case. It has just been slow enough to sink the completion of the case by September. But finishing it by September was always going to be a big ask to achieve, and it was unlikely that SCOTUS would actively cooperate in achieving that.

The ultimate problem is that the wheels of US justice turn slowly, and this process just started far too late for the length of time Trump would be able - even with his poor quality legal team - to stretch it out for, with appeals on various issues. By the time a Grand Jury indicted Trump on 37 counts, it was already over 30 months since the relevant incidents, and only 15 months before the deadline to complete the legal process before the next election. Whilst various people claimed Jack Smith had boxed clever to try and finish this in that 15 months, I think most people really knew it was probably already too late by then. That's what I believed at the time, its what many analysts said at the time, despite various optimistic people trying really hard to argue that that it really was perfectly feasible to finish this in time.

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Re: Indecision 2024

Post by dyqik » Thu Feb 29, 2024 12:35 pm

Chris Preston wrote:
Thu Feb 29, 2024 7:13 am
Illinois does not want Trump on the ballot either.
And early voting is currently underway in the primary there.

The Supreme Court can prevent this simply by not issuing a ruling.

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Re: Indecision 2024

Post by IvanV » Thu Feb 29, 2024 1:41 pm

IvanV wrote:
Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:27 am
And this is a very important case for the long-term legal precedent of the US. There is a sense it would be wrong to hurry over it, much as many would find that convenient at just this moment.
I've now seen some more detailed news analysis, as for example set out in this Reuters article, that suggests that SCOTUS might be being a bit cute here, in a way that rather worries me.
Reuters wrote:The Supreme Court set the case ... on a single question: "Whether and if so to what extent does a former president enjoy presidential immunity from criminal prosecution for conduct alleged to involve official acts during his tenure in office."
Now it is normal for SCOTUS to narrow a question so that it is only addressing what it needs to address for the case(s) it affects. But the wording here is really odd. Because surely whether there is presidential immunity depends whether something is an official act, not whether it is alleged to be an official act. Because anyone can allege any act is an official act, whether it is or isn't, and that is precisely what Trump has done here. Smith seems to be on very solid ground in saying that the acts that Trump has been prosecuted over are not official acts. So how can you determine whether there is or is not immunity for something based on whether something, likely some nonsense, has been alleged about it?

Maybe what the Supreme Court means here is that it will very narrowly assess specifically Trump's presidential immunity in relation to those specific acts in the trial case(s) and no others. Which would make sense, but it would be a very narrow ruling indeed. But SCOTUS does generally try to make narrow rulings, so perhaps that is not surprising. But for all that, they can have very wide application. We will have to see how wide are the implications of this narrow ruling. But the way that they have worded it is rather concerning.

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Re: Indecision 2024

Post by Stranger Mouse » Thu Feb 29, 2024 5:20 pm

Interesting that there is no suggestion that Clarence Thomas is recusing himself despite the fact that his wife was up to her neck in the insurrection herself. tw.t.
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Re: Indecision 2024

Post by dyqik » Thu Feb 29, 2024 5:31 pm

If SCOTUS decides that presidents have immunity for official actions, whatever their motivation or justification, then they open a very large can of worms.

Granting pardons is an official act spelled out in the Constitution. So offering pardons for anyone who assassinated a Supreme Court Justice would be a protected official act with immunity.

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Re: Indecision 2024

Post by IvanV » Thu Feb 29, 2024 6:08 pm

dyqik wrote:
Thu Feb 29, 2024 5:31 pm
If SCOTUS decides that presidents have immunity for official actions, whatever their motivation or justification, then they open a very large can of worms.
I think the Prosecutor was careful to prosecute only in relation to actions where he believed he was on firm ground that they were not official actions. Because I think he considered it possible that the ex-president could be immune in relation to official actions performed while in office. So such a ruling would appear irrelevant to the present case, unless SCOTUS also ruled that these specific actions were official actions, even though they appear quite clearly not to be. Trump is arguing that practically anything he does of some political relevance, if he does it while president, is an official action. If SCOTUS in effect agrees to that claim, then I think that may be where a problem arises for US democracy.

But will that happen? Armed with such immunity, what might Biden do?

But if SCOTUS merely rules that presidents have immunity for official actions, then that doesn't help Trump in his case, unless the case judge agrees with Trump that the actions are official.

The wording of the question that SCOTUS is addressing does not refer to official actions, but to actions "alleged" to be official. There's an important difference. But it remains unclear what SCOTUS's eventual ruling might look like.

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Re: Indecision 2024

Post by dyqik » Thu Feb 29, 2024 6:29 pm

That's why I distinguish facially official actions, carried out for corrupt or illegal purposes, from official actions carried out for legitimate purposes.

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Re: Indecision 2024

Post by Stranger Mouse » Thu Feb 29, 2024 7:09 pm

dyqik wrote:
Thu Feb 29, 2024 5:31 pm
If SCOTUS decides that presidents have immunity for official actions, whatever their motivation or justification, then they open a very large can of worms.

Granting pardons is an official act spelled out in the Constitution. So offering pardons for anyone who assassinated a Supreme Court Justice would be a protected official act with immunity.
I’m amazed that at the DC court the judge who asked about seal team 6 assassinating political rivals didn’t specifically ask about judges being the target. “Could he have me assassinated?”
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Re: Indecision 2024

Post by philbo » Fri Mar 01, 2024 11:58 pm

Stranger Mouse wrote:
Thu Feb 29, 2024 7:09 pm
dyqik wrote:
Thu Feb 29, 2024 5:31 pm
If SCOTUS decides that presidents have immunity for official actions, whatever their motivation or justification, then they open a very large can of worms.

Granting pardons is an official act spelled out in the Constitution. So offering pardons for anyone who assassinated a Supreme Court Justice would be a protected official act with immunity.
I’m amazed that at the DC court the judge who asked about seal team 6 assassinating political rivals didn’t specifically ask about judges being the target. “Could he have me assassinated?”
...or could Biden have Trump assassinated?

Would save the courts a whole bunch of time

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Re: Indecision 2024

Post by Woodchopper » Sun Mar 03, 2024 10:26 am

Things are not moving in a direction consistent with Biden winning in November. Of course Biden could turn things around, but the question is when and how?
With eight months left until the November election, Mr. Biden’s 43 percent support lags behind Mr. Trump’s 48 percent in the national survey of registered voters.

Only one in four voters thinks the country is moving in the right direction. More than twice as many voters believe Mr. Biden’s policies have personally hurt them as believe his policies have helped them. A majority of voters think the economy is in poor condition. And the share of voters who strongly disapprove of Mr. Biden’s handling of his job has reached 47 percent, higher than in Times/Siena polls at any point in his presidency.

[...]

Mr. Trump’s five-point lead in the survey, which was conducted in late February, is slightly larger than in the last Times/Siena national poll of registered voters in December. Among the likely electorate, Mr. Trump currently leads by four percentage points.

In last year’s survey, Mr. Trump led by two points among registered voters and Mr. Biden led by two points among the projected likely electorate.

One of the more ominous findings for Mr. Biden in the new poll is that the historical edge Democrats have held with working-class voters of color who did not attend college continues to erode.

Mr. Biden won 72 percent of those voters in 2020, according to exit polling, providing him with a nearly 50-point edge over Mr. Trump. Today, the Times/Siena poll showed Mr. Biden only narrowly leading among nonwhite voters who did not graduate from college: 47 percent to 41 percent.

An excitement gap between the two parties shows up repeatedly in the survey: Only 23 percent of Democratic primary voters said they were enthusiastic about Mr. Biden — half the share of Republicans who said they were about Mr. Trump. Significantly more Democrats said they were either dissatisfied or angry at Mr. Biden being the leader of the party (32 percent) than Republicans who said the same about Mr. Trump (18 percent).

Both Mr. Trump and Mr. Biden are unpopular. Mr. Trump had a weak 44 percent favorable rating; Mr. Biden fared even worse, at 38 percent. Among the 19 percent of voters who said they disapproved of both likely nominees — an unusually large cohort in 2024 that pollsters and political strategists sometimes call “double haters” — Mr. Biden actually led Mr. Trump, 45 percent to 33 percent.

[...]

Overall, Mr. Biden and Mr. Trump were dead even among prized independent voters, drawing 42 percent each.

But over and over, the Times/Siena poll revealed how Mr. Trump has cut into more traditional Democratic constituencies while holding his ground among Republican groups. The gender gap, for instance, is no longer benefiting Democrats. Women, who strongly favored Mr. Biden four years ago, are now equally split, while men gave Mr. Trump a nine-point edge. The poll showed Mr. Trump edging out Mr. Biden among Latinos, and Mr. Biden’s share of the Black vote is shrinking, too.

There are, of course, unpredictable X factors in a race where the Republican front-runner is facing four indictments, 91 felony counts and a criminal trial set to begin at the end of March in New York State Supreme Court.

The poll showed that 53 percent of voters currently believe Mr. Trump has committed serious federal crimes, down from 58 percent in December. But viewed another way, Mr. Trump’s current lead over Mr. Biden is built with a significant number of voters who believe he is a criminal.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/02/us/p ... -poll.html

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Re: Indecision 2024

Post by Stranger Mouse » Sun Mar 03, 2024 1:16 pm

I would take everything the New York Times says with a pinch of salt
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Re: Indecision 2024

Post by dyqik » Sun Mar 03, 2024 1:42 pm

Stranger Mouse wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2024 1:16 pm
I would take everything the New York Times says with a pinch of salt
Certainly the analysis based on this poll, which changed its methodology somewhat since the last one in the series, didn't poll Latinos in Spanish (known to bias things to the GOP by a large margin), and didn't show statistically significant changes in most of numbers they highlighted (±6% for binary questions in an unweighted poll of 1000 respondents) from their last poll.

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Re: Indecision 2024

Post by monkey » Sun Mar 03, 2024 1:55 pm

dyqik wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2024 1:42 pm
Stranger Mouse wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2024 1:16 pm
I would take everything the New York Times says with a pinch of salt
Certainly the analysis based on this poll, which changed its methodology somewhat since the last one in the series, didn't poll Latinos in Spanish (known to bias things to the GOP by a large margin), and didn't show statistically significant changes in most of numbers they highlighted (±6% for binary questions in an unweighted poll of 1000 respondents) from their last poll.
I thought the error in a poll that size was about +/- 3%.

Also, it's traditional for journalists to ignore MOE, unless they want to poo-poo someone else's reporting.

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Re: Indecision 2024

Post by dyqik » Sun Mar 03, 2024 2:26 pm

monkey wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2024 1:55 pm
dyqik wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2024 1:42 pm
Stranger Mouse wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2024 1:16 pm
I would take everything the New York Times says with a pinch of salt
Certainly the analysis based on this poll, which changed its methodology somewhat since the last one in the series, didn't poll Latinos in Spanish (known to bias things to the GOP by a large margin), and didn't show statistically significant changes in most of numbers they highlighted (±6% for binary questions in an unweighted poll of 1000 respondents) from their last poll.
I thought the error in a poll that size was about +/- 3%.
It's ±3 points on a single value, like "would you vote for Biden?" or "would you vote for Trump?", or on each possible response in "who do you intend to vote for? Biden, Trump, Stein, Other?". But it's ±6 points on the difference between two of those numbers, because you're taking the difference between two values that have high correlation.

In that particular form of question. Biden 46 : Trump 48 is statistically indistinguishable from Biden 52 : Trump 42.

That's before you take account of weighting, where very small subsamples may be multiplied by fairly large factors to make the nominal polling sample population more representative of the electorate.

And then there's the severe and rapidly worsening systematic biases in cold calling polls. A majority of many of the key subpopulation groups don't answer the phone to strangers, and those that do are unlikely to be representative of the whole.

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Re: Indecision 2024

Post by monkey » Sun Mar 03, 2024 2:49 pm

dyqik wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2024 2:26 pm
monkey wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2024 1:55 pm
dyqik wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2024 1:42 pm


Certainly the analysis based on this poll, which changed its methodology somewhat since the last one in the series, didn't poll Latinos in Spanish (known to bias things to the GOP by a large margin), and didn't show statistically significant changes in most of numbers they highlighted (±6% for binary questions in an unweighted poll of 1000 respondents) from their last poll.
I thought the error in a poll that size was about +/- 3%.
It's ±3 points on a single value, like "would you vote for Biden?" or "would you vote for Trump?", or on each possible response in "who do you intend to vote for? Biden, Trump, Stein, Other?". But it's ±6 points on the difference between two of those numbers, because you're taking the difference between two values that have high correlation.
Gotcha, you're looking at the differences. Makes sense why one is +3 out, the other has to be -3 out.

The other stuff you wrote is why I don't think looking at single polls, or differences between just two polls is useful, and more people should know that.

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Re: Indecision 2024

Post by Woodchopper » Sun Mar 03, 2024 5:31 pm

dyqik wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2024 1:42 pm
Stranger Mouse wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2024 1:16 pm
I would take everything the New York Times says with a pinch of salt
Certainly the analysis based on this poll, which changed its methodology somewhat since the last one in the series, didn't poll Latinos in Spanish (known to bias things to the GOP by a large margin).
That isn't correct, the poll was conducted in English and Spanish (see the methodology here).

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Re: Indecision 2024

Post by dyqik » Sun Mar 03, 2024 8:25 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2024 5:31 pm
dyqik wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2024 1:42 pm
Stranger Mouse wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2024 1:16 pm
I would take everything the New York Times says with a pinch of salt
Certainly the analysis based on this poll, which changed its methodology somewhat since the last one in the series, didn't poll Latinos in Spanish (known to bias things to the GOP by a large margin).
That isn't correct, the poll was conducted in English and Spanish (see the methodology here).
The exact criticism was that Latino sample in the poll was mostly polled in English, which shows that it was a biased sample. Although the poll was conducted in both English and Spanish, the response rates were biased towards English speakers.

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Re: Indecision 2024

Post by lpm » Mon Mar 04, 2024 10:51 am

The message from the poll is that voters consider Biden too old to be an effective President.

Really worrying that this clear signal is being ignored.

And it's being ignored on spurious grounds - that it is not true and that Trump is worse. Both are irrelevant.
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