Indecision 2024

[Gfamily]

So: any serious consideration of the 'Starlink-Trump victory!!" conspiracy theories?

[bjn]

Trump voters were generally misinformed about the major issues. Spreading b.llsh.t liberally and often seems to be a useful tactic. Gish gallops for the gullible.

https://www.project-syndicate.org/comme ... ng-2024-11

[Grumble]

Trump voters were generally misinformed about the major issues. Spreading b.llsh.t liberally and often seems to be a useful tactic. Gish gallops for the gullible.

https://www.project-syndicate.org/comme ... ng-2024-11

It all makes one feel a bit helpless. How do we break into the silo and share good news when people are so determined to listen to bad?

[TopBadger]

Interesting cabinet he's putting together.

I assume the formation of US Government Inc (Delaware) and US Government Holdings Limited (Cayman Islands) plus numerous shadow companies isn't far away. Let the asset stripping commence in January!

[monkey]

The Department of Government Efficiency has two bosses.

Doesn't seem very efficient to me.

[bolo]

The Department of Government Efficiency has two bosses.

Doesn't seem very efficient to me.

If the goal is to give Musk and Ramaswamy impressive sounding titles while pitting them against each other and accomplishing nothing, it seems like a pretty good setup. Much better than putting either of them in charge of an actual Department.

At least, I hope so.

[Gfamily]

The Department of Government Efficiency has two bosses.

Doesn't seem very efficient to me.

Also is likely to be branded the DOGE, which is very likely another Musk being a tw.t thing.

[jimbob]

The Department of Government Efficiency has two bosses.

Doesn't seem very efficient to me.

If the goal is to give Musk and Ramaswamy impressive sounding titles while pitting them against each other and accomplishing nothing, it seems like a pretty good setup. Much better than putting either of them in charge of an actual Department.

At least, I hope so.

A common approach in autocratic governments, because chaos is a benefit to the guy at the top

[El Pollo Diablo]

The Department of Government Efficiency has two bosses.

Doesn't seem very efficient to me.

If the goal is to give Musk and Ramaswamy impressive sounding titles while pitting them against each other and accomplishing nothing, it seems like a pretty good setup. Much better than putting either of them in charge of an actual Department.

At least, I hope so.

Anthony Scaramucci was saying that one of Trump's favourite games is to pitch people against each other and laugh as they fight for dominance, so this very much fits with that. Also, Trump hates Musk.

[jimbob]

The Department of Government Efficiency has two bosses.

Doesn't seem very efficient to me.

If the goal is to give Musk and Ramaswamy impressive sounding titles while pitting them against each other and accomplishing nothing, it seems like a pretty good setup. Much better than putting either of them in charge of an actual Department.

At least, I hope so.

Anthony Scaramucci was saying that one of Trump's favourite games is to pitch people against each other and laugh as they fight for dominance, so this very much fits with that. Also, Trump hates Musk.

See my previous post. And I suspect Trump hates everyone who isn't him

[bjn]

The Department of Government Efficiency has two bosses.

Doesn't seem very efficient to me.

If the goal is to give Musk and Ramaswamy impressive sounding titles while pitting them against each other and accomplishing nothing, it seems like a pretty good setup. Much better than putting either of them in charge of an actual Department.

At least, I hope so.

Anthony Scaramucci was saying that one of Trump's favourite games is to pitch people against each other and laugh as they fight for dominance, so this very much fits with that. Also, Trump hates Musk.

I finally found something I have in common with Trump.

[FlammableFlower]

Matt Gaetz as attorney general. Trump's trolling everyone now.

[Grumble]

I’m really glad I don’t live in the USA right now. Not sure I can do much for those of you who do, other than offer sympathy for what the next 4 years hold.

[jimbob]

When the best bet is that Trump remains so vain that he wants to be in charge of the changes and is as ineffectual as Johnson, it's not good.

[FlammableFlower]

The last Trump presidency was knee-jerk announcements, u-turns and in-fighting. There were sufficient calm people and career bureaucrats around to keep it in a relatively even keel. With Trump, Miller, Musk and the Project 2025 lot looking to remove anyone not sufficiently loyal, the good ship USA is going to be in for a rough ride.

Looking at how the Brexit vote turned out, I'm not surprised that populist bollocks won out. Especially as (thanks in large part to Dick Cheney) Fox and other right-wing channels have basically been working on this for years. I guess when the likes of Cheney planned to take the breaks off they imagined that people like Trump would take over the GOP.

[bjn]

Depressing read from Carole Cadwalladr.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... s-of-power

[dyqik]

The last Trump presidency was knee-jerk announcements, u-turns and in-fighting. There were sufficient calm people and career bureaucrats around to keep it in a relatively even keel. With Trump, Miller, Musk and the Project 2025 lot looking to remove anyone not sufficiently loyal, the good ship USA is going to be in for a rough ride.

Looking at how the Brexit vote turned out, I'm not surprised that populist bollocks won out. Especially as (thanks in large part to Dick Cheney) Fox and other right-wing channels have basically been working on this for years. I guess when the likes of Cheney planned to take the breaks off they imagined that people like Trump would take over the GOP.

I don't think Cheney himself thought that - hence his endorsement of Harris. He thought that people like him would continue to get power.

(You might be missing the word "didn't" in that last sentence)

[FlammableFlower]

The last Trump presidency was knee-jerk announcements, u-turns and in-fighting. There were sufficient calm people and career bureaucrats around to keep it in a relatively even keel. With Trump, Miller, Musk and the Project 2025 lot looking to remove anyone not sufficiently loyal, the good ship USA is going to be in for a rough ride.

Looking at how the Brexit vote turned out, I'm not surprised that populist bollocks won out. Especially as (thanks in large part to Dick Cheney) Fox and other right-wing channels have basically been working on this for years. I guess when the likes of Cheney planned to take the breaks off they imagined that people like Trump would take over the GOP.

I don't think Cheney himself thought that - hence his endorsement of Harris. He thought that people like him would continue to get power.

(You might be missing the word "didn't" in that last sentence)

Damn, yes it was supposed to be there!

[Gfamily]

The appointments scrutiny and confirmation process could be interesting (and enlightening) in respect of some - though the 'alternative truths' model being adopted may mean the process gets subverted.

https://www.cov.com/en/news-and-insight ... on-process

[Martin Y]

The Department of Government Efficiency has two bosses.

Doesn't seem very efficient to me.

Also is likely to be branded the DOGE, which is very likely another Musk being a tw.t thing.

As soon as I saw that I knew the department was created around the meme.

[bolo]

In case anyone doesn't already realize this, it isn't really a "department". Just a sort of advisory commission, with no actual authority to implement anything, just make recommendations.

Now if Trump takes its recommendations seriously, and especially if Congress goes along with them, then that would would make it pretty powerful. But it could equally well turn out to be a complete nonentity.

[Woodchopper]

The NY Times has an interesting article in which thirteen young people who weren't sure how to vote in August explained their decisions. Of course they aren't a representative sample, and so it would be wrong to extrapolate their choices to the electorate. But it is still an interesting reminder that normal people (eg those who don't consume political coverage every day) are motivated by very different things than people highly engaged in politics (as in almost everyone posting on this thread).

For example, several said that the they voted Trump because he and Vance gave the impression of being more like regular people than Harris.

Here's the answers to the question:

Chris, 24, Fla., white, law student, voted Trump in 2020
I voted for Kamala Harris. I’d been leaning that way, especially after the debate. And Jan. 6 was something I couldn’t look past.

Mark, 24, Calif., Black, chef, voted Biden in 2020
I voted for Jill Stein. I came to that conclusion when Kamala said she wouldn’t do anything different from Joe Biden. It was also the war in Gaza and all the images I’ve seen. I couldn’t get over it.

Pierce, 26, N.C., white, sales, didn't vote in 2020
I voted for Donald Trump. I decided after Kamala went on “Call Her Daddy.”

Lillian, 27, Va., white, digital advertising, voted Trump in 2020
I voted for Trump and made that decision the same day the mainstream media was having a meltdown after the Madison Square Garden rally. I also saw an ad from Democrats about abortion misinformation that really made me upset. I said, “You know what? I’m going to vote for Trump. Everybody hates him. They’re lying about pregnancies. Let’s just do it.”

Joseph, 24, S.C., white, high school teacher, voted Biden in 2020
I voted Trump. I made the decision after he appeared on “Joe Rogan.” He just seemed more normal than the other side.

Jasper, 25, Calif., biracial, food service, voted Biden in 2020
I voted for Trump. It was after realizing that many Democrats only preferred Harris because of her rhetoric and not because of her policy.

Angelo, 19, N.Y., Latino, college worker, didn’t vote in 2020
I wrote in Josh Shapiro. I wanted to vote for someone who represented my ideas and beliefs rather than voting for someone who is too extreme or a phony.

Ayshah, 21, Iowa, South Asian, student, didn't vote in 2020
I ended up voting for Kamala Harris. I did not want to vote for a convicted felon.

Abigail, 23, Va., white, graduate assistant, voted Biden in 2020
I can’t believe it, but I did end up voting for Donald Trump. I made that decision when I saw JD Vance’s interview with The New York Times. He is the future of the Republican Party. I’m more voting for Vance than I am for Trump.

George, 21, Ga., white, student, didn't vote in 2020
I voted for Donald Trump. Like Abigail, I was really impressed with JD Vance, especially during the V.P. debate.

Laura, 20, Md., white, legal intern, didn't vote in 2020
I wrote in Larry Hogan. I made that decision after I saw Harris doing a lot of entertainment interviews and not focusing on actual interviews with CNN or Fox News or reputable news sources. I couldn’t, in good faith, vote for Trump knowing that he was facing criminal charges.

Jack, 22, N.Y., white, underwriter, voted Biden in 2020
I wrote in for Mike Bloomberg. I don’t like either top of the ticket.

McLane, 25, D.C., white, legal field, wrote in Romney in 2020
I shocked myself and voted for Trump. No one tell my family. I was so impressed by JD Vance, the way he carried himself and how normal he appeared. I think I became radicalized on the men and women’s sports issue. The ad that said, “Kamala represents they/them. Trump represents you,” that was so compelling. While Trump is deranged, he represented normalcy somehow to me.

Here's the answers to the question 'Was there a moment during the final two weeks of the race that caused you to think, “Oh, wow, this is not what I was expecting — this really matters to me”?'.

Chris, 24, Fla., white, law student, voted Trump in 2020
When John Kelly came out with a lot of force against Trump. This isn’t someone who is a leftist person, a Democrat. He’s a retired military general. That shook me to my core, that someone that close to Trump would say those things about him.

Jack, 22, N.Y., white, underwriter, voted Biden in 2020
The Joe Rogan interview was huge for me. Trump enthusiastically said yes to a three-hour, open, honest conversation with Joe Rogan, who was a former Bernie bro. I think it’s very telling about which candidate is authentic and which candidate is not.

Abigail, 23, Va., white, graduate assistant, voted Biden in 2020
I saw how the media has become so corrupted in their cause against Trump. There was that Trump clip of him saying: Put Cheney in front of a bunch of shooters. But he wasn’t actually implying Cheney should be shot. I cannot vote for an establishment that just thinks it’s OK to lie to us.

Laura, 20, Md., white, legal intern, didn't vote in 2020
I was looking for a candidate that I felt I could trust. A key moment that stuck out to me was the “S.N.L.” skit that Harris did, where she essentially made fun of herself. All her focus was going to entertainment industries and avoiding interviews. That came off to me as very phony.

Lillian, 27, Va., white, digital advertising, voted Trump in 2020
The thing that was really the nail in the coffin for me was when Biden called half the country garbage and then the White House moved to change the record officially. That really bothered me. That made me really want to rally against them.

Ayshah, 21, Iowa, South Asian, student, didn't vote in 2020
The last two weeks were extremely stressful, and I just didn’t want to stress about it anymore. I thought I might as well vote for her.

Joseph, 24, S.C., white, high school teacher, voted Biden in 2020
The mainstream media was carrying Kamala Harris’s water. We need a check on the president to have a healthy democracy. If Kamala Harris was elected, there wouldn’t be a check on her from the media.

Here's the responses to: How many of you, by show of hands, disliked both candidates? It is literally every single person here. What does that say to you about American democracy?

ierce, 26, N.C., white, sales, didn't vote in 2020
I don’t think we’ll ever see another election where there’s one candidate that truly wins in a Reagan landslide.

Jack, 22, N.Y., white, underwriter, voted Biden in 2020
I just think both candidates have serious drawbacks. With Trump, it’s being bombastic on social media, making up wild conspiracy theories, going back to the 2020 election. Kamala, she didn’t explain why to vote for her. She basically ran on vibes, and she ran on “not Trump.” You got to earn the American people’s vote.

Jasper, 25, Calif., biracial, food service, voted Biden in 2020
I kind of wish the Democrats had actually gone through the process of selecting someone rather than just kicking out Joe Biden and doing the hokeypokey with Kamala Harris.

Angelo, 19, N.Y., Latino, college worker, didn’t vote in 2020
Donald Trump was way too extreme for me. To not be able to admit that he lost the 2020 election, him not apologizing for what happened on Jan. 6 and then also him being a felon and surrounding himself with crazy people — that just sets me off. Kamala Harris, she just is probably one of the biggest phonies in politics right now.

Jack, 22, N.Y., white, underwriter, voted Biden in 2020
I wish there was an opportunity to elect someone a lot younger that I felt aligned with my values.

Mark, 24, Calif., Black, chef, voted Biden in 2020
I don’t agree with Trump on most of his policies. On the Kamala Harris end, I don’t think she made it to Super Tuesday in 2020. She’s just, at heart, not a good candidate. And the things she ran on in 2020, she flip-flopped on in 2024. It just shows she doesn’t have actual policy positions. She’s just in it for herself and to win. You don’t believe in anything, so why should I believe in you?

And finally, responses to: Was there a specific advertisement or political ad that you remember, either because it was awesome or because it insulted you or because it made you think?

McLane, 25, D.C., white, legal field, wrote in Romney in 2020
I mentioned it earlier — “Harris cares about they/them. Trump cares about you.” So powerful.


George, 21, Ga., white, student, didn't vote in 2020
It’s the same ad that McLane brought up but for different reasons. I think that ad is pretty indicative of what exactly is wrong with the Republican Party, going after a marginalized group. It annoyed the crap out of me. I couldn’t get a break from it.


Joseph, 24, S.C., white, high school teacher, voted Biden in 2020
It was a Trump ad — all of the more moderate people that he’s brought into his coalition were introduced. And it reminded me why I trust his judgment, in that sense, more than Kamala Harris. Now, if Kamala Harris picked Josh Shapiro, I’d probably be sitting here and telling you I voted for her, simply because I feel like he’s more moderate.


Lillian, 27, Va., white, digital advertising, voted Trump in 2020
When I had my son almost a year ago, I had a hemorrhage. And I live in a state with an abortion ban. And I was still able to receive lifesaving care. I had a visceral reaction to people saying I wouldn’t have received care, because it’s a lie. If they’re preying on people’s ignorance and, quite frankly, their stupidity and their fear, I want nothing to do with it.


Abigail, 23, Va., white, graduate assistant, voted Biden in 2020
The ad where there are two married couples and the two wives went in to vote secretly and they glanced at each other and then both voted for Kamala Harris — oh, my gosh. Is that what you think of married women, that we don’t have the confidence to marry men who are our equal partners? I cannot vote for a party that thinks that poorly of me.

Ayshah, 21, Iowa, South Asian, student, didn't vote in 2020
Whenever I’d see an ad where Kamala Harris would tell me that today is the day I should donate to her party, it was just like, “Girl, I’m broke. Go away. Let me watch my YouTube video.”

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... Position=1

[Stranger Mouse]

In case anyone doesn't already realize this, it isn't really a "department". Just a sort of advisory commission, with no actual authority to implement anything, just make recommendations.

Now if Trump takes its recommendations seriously, and especially if Congress goes along with them, then that would would make it pretty powerful. But it could equally well turn out to be a complete nonentity.

It’s not a department and can only give recommendations which can be ignored. Although Musk has verified them on Shitter as if they are a government department https://x.com/doge/status/1856783252071354727?s=61

[Stranger Mouse]

Matt Gaetz as attorney general. Trump's trolling everyone now.

He resigned from Congress just in time to avoid the ethics investigation https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 46865.html

[Grumble]

Josh Shapiro is moderate now?