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Re: Creating money
Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 7:44 pm
by discovolante
Fairly light podcast episode here about crypto scams, the economic environments that are good breeding grounds for these types of scam etc
https://play.acast.com/s/the-david-mcwi ... dan-davies I dunno about David McWilliams, he is good at making things accessible but he also seems like a bit of a blagger with the gift of the gab, but it seemed relevant.
Re: Creating money
Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:30 pm
by dyqik
monkey wrote: ↑Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:35 pm
dyqik wrote: ↑Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:24 pm
monkey wrote: ↑Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:12 pm
It talks about how money is destroyed too, which has been missing from this discussion.
I'm going to be very disappointed if it doesn't involve antimoney.
I'm afraid it's mostly just paying your loan back to the bank, but there's other things.
You could try putting a couple of quid in the LHC and see what comes off.
Presumably that's what the BoE did to find out what money is made of, right?
Re: Creating money
Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 9:18 pm
by Gfamily
dyqik wrote: ↑Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:30 pm
monkey wrote: ↑Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:35 pm
You could try putting a couple of quid in the LHC and see what comes off.
Presumably that's what the BoE did to find out what money is made of, right?
Previously they would have used a SERC engine, but nowadays, I'm not sure it would work...
Re: Creating money
Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 11:46 pm
by Bewildered
dyqik wrote: ↑Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:24 pm
monkey wrote: ↑Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:12 pm
Bewildered wrote: ↑Sun Nov 27, 2022 12:24 pm
Thanks, I just read the first couple of pages but that matches my scenario 2, right, not the scenario 1 which seems to be implied by the article in the OP which does describe things in terms of lending out the saver’s money.
This was how I understood it worked until I read that article in the OP and wondered if I had somehow misunderstood things…
It talks about how money is destroyed too, which has been missing from this discussion.
I'm going to be very disappointed if it doesn't involve antimoney.
when I first learned about debt creation of money, I explicitly thought of it as creating money and anti-money (debt). I even called it virtual money to distinguish it from physical currency...
Re: Creating money
Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:56 am
by plodder
dyqik wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:42 pm
As that explains, my example didn't cover the loans that are made by banks that create money by creating new loans without borrowing from the central bank. I was wrong on thinking that was necessary.
What stops plodder from doing the same thing at the same scale is lack of confidence, arising from the small scale of his banking operations.
So now we’re finally at the “we have to trust banks to make the whole fractional reserve banking thing work”.
So what happens (as in 2007) when they made colossal amounts of loans backed with f.ck all that caused a global recession due to the fact that we were too scared to not bail them out with actual value from people’s hard work (rather than fictional “risk managed” money)?
Eta we still have to “trust” them, right? We don’t do a reckoning, or rethink, or educate ourselves, or debate alternatives? Instead we make silly LHC jokes and pretend everything is fine until next time, and the time after that.
And the banking sector keeps growing in influence, and continues to try and shrug off regulation, and credit keeps getting “cheaper” and “cheaper” (intergenerational mortgages for something that used to be affordable with a 3x salary multiplier?) and we’re all increasingly bound to debt slavery to these bastards who literally create the money we’re forced to borrow out of thin air because “trust”.
Re: Creating money
Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:26 am
by bjn
Alternatives to banks already exist, eg: building societies and credit unions.
Crypto tokens themselves are not an alternative to a financial institution, they are sh.tty databases pretending to be currencies.
I'd love for the strangle hold that finance has over every thing we do were broken. But crypto is not going to do that, a crypto world would be far far worse.
Re: Creating money
Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 12:32 pm
by dyqik
plodder wrote: ↑Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:56 am
dyqik wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:42 pm
As that explains, my example didn't cover the loans that are made by banks that create money by creating new loans without borrowing from the central bank. I was wrong on thinking that was necessary.
What stops plodder from doing the same thing at the same scale is lack of confidence, arising from the small scale of his banking operations.
So now we’re finally at the “we have to trust banks to make the whole fractional reserve banking thing work”.
So what happens (as in 2007) when they made colossal amounts of loans backed with f.ck all that caused a global recession due to the fact that we were too scared to not bail them out with actual value from people’s hard work (rather than fictional “risk managed” money)?
Most banks didn't do this. There's plenty of diversity in the banking sector, if you bother to try to find it.
If you want your money protected against scammers, risk takers etc., you have to put it in a regulated financial institution, so that government guarantees for your deposits are valid, and that appropriate regulations are followed. An institution that follows those rules is called a bank (or credit union or building society)
If it's got those protections and offering you an account in any currency, including non traditional ones, it's still a bank.
Introducing crypto to that means that your get a bank account in denominated in a cryptocurrency. Nothing more or less.
Some of us have educated ourselves, and can see what crypto is and isn't, how it works, and what features it does and doesn't bring. You don't seem to have bothered.
Your complaints are about the UK's poor regulation and economic policies and the UK's terrible housing polices. They are nothing to do with the nature of the currency.
House prices elsewhere are nowhere near as problematic on a national scale, and renters generally get a much better deal as well. These are political choices that the UK has made, not a function of the currency.
Re: Creating money
Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 2:59 pm
by Stephanie
I'm not really sure which thread to post this in, but my view is I don't have an objection to different financial systems or whatever. But everything I've read about crypto currency suggests to me that the people who have made money off it are already wealthy and can afford to take risks with their investments. So it is basically the same as the current system in terms of it being a plaything of the wealthy, right? But with no regulation and much more risk for any regular person.
Re: Creating money
Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:34 pm
by plodder
dyqik wrote: ↑Mon Nov 28, 2022 12:32 pm
plodder wrote: ↑Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:56 am
dyqik wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:42 pm
As that explains, my example didn't cover the loans that are made by banks that create money by creating new loans without borrowing from the central bank. I was wrong on thinking that was necessary.
What stops plodder from doing the same thing at the same scale is lack of confidence, arising from the small scale of his banking operations.
So now we’re finally at the “we have to trust banks to make the whole fractional reserve banking thing work”.
So what happens (as in 2007) when they made colossal amounts of loans backed with f.ck all that caused a global recession due to the fact that we were too scared to not bail them out with actual value from people’s hard work (rather than fictional “risk managed” money)?
Most banks didn't do this. There's plenty of diversity in the banking sector, if you bother to try to find it.
If you want your money protected against scammers, risk takers etc., you have to put it in a regulated financial institution, so that government guarantees for your deposits are valid, and that appropriate regulations are followed. An institution that follows those rules is called a bank (or credit union or building society)
If it's got those protections and offering you an account in any currency, including non traditional ones, it's still a bank.
Introducing crypto to that means that your get a bank account in denominated in a cryptocurrency. Nothing more or less.
Some of us have educated ourselves, and can see what crypto is and isn't, how it works, and what features it does and doesn't bring. You don't seem to have bothered.
Your complaints are about the UK's poor regulation and economic policies and the UK's terrible housing polices. They are nothing to do with the nature of the currency.
House prices elsewhere are nowhere near as problematic on a national scale, and renters generally get a much better deal as well. These are political choices that the UK has made, not a function of the currency.
This is a Gish Gallop (possibly because you don't have a central point to argue so you're scrabbling around) and I'm not about to edit it in order to make it easy to reply to. However, in order, if you're interested:
Loads of banks did it and the whole sector was f.cked up to the point that it was clearly at terminal risk. This cost us all a fortune in real terms, not imaginary pretend money terms.
Didn't work though did it? The whole thing went tits up.
Uh, thanks for that.
Wrong and irrelevant, thanks, we're talking about money creation.
DID YOU GO TO OXFORD YOU NEVER MENTIONED IT
No, my complaints are about untrammelled cheap credit and where it comes from. Those other things are different things. Do you see?
House prices appear to be becoming a global problem in many major cities and elsewhere. People couldn't pay those silly prices if no-one lend them the money. But where does that money come from??? Trick question!
Re: Creating money
Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:09 pm
by noggins
Ah, if banks create money its bad, but if crypto creates money its good.
Seems to me that a non-scam crypto (if it even exists) effectively just hands out money to its early adaptors. Like a meteorite broke up and dropped gold nuggets into random gardens. I dont see how that helps the aggregate weal, its just a boon for a few paid for by inflation.
Re: Creating money
Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:02 pm
by dyqik
plodder wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:34 pm
dyqik wrote: ↑Mon Nov 28, 2022 12:32 pm
plodder wrote: ↑Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:56 am
So now we’re finally at the “we have to trust banks to make the whole fractional reserve banking thing work”.
So what happens (as in 2007) when they made colossal amounts of loans backed with f.ck all that caused a global recession due to the fact that we were too scared to not bail them out with actual value from people’s hard work (rather than fictional “risk managed” money)?
Most banks didn't do this. There's plenty of diversity in the banking sector, if you bother to try to find it.
If you want your money protected against scammers, risk takers etc., you have to put it in a regulated financial institution, so that government guarantees for your deposits are valid, and that appropriate regulations are followed. An institution that follows those rules is called a bank (or credit union or building society)
If it's got those protections and offering you an account in any currency, including non traditional ones, it's still a bank.
Introducing crypto to that means that your get a bank account in denominated in a cryptocurrency. Nothing more or less.
Some of us have educated ourselves, and can see what crypto is and isn't, how it works, and what features it does and doesn't bring. You don't seem to have bothered.
Your complaints are about the UK's poor regulation and economic policies and the UK's terrible housing polices. They are nothing to do with the nature of the currency.
House prices elsewhere are nowhere near as problematic on a national scale, and renters generally get a much better deal as well. These are political choices that the UK has made, not a function of the currency.
This is a Gish Gallop (possibly because you don't have a central point to argue so you're scrabbling around) and I'm not about to edit it in order to make it easy to reply to. However, in order, if you're interested:
Loads of banks did it and the whole sector was f.cked up to the point that it was clearly at terminal risk. This cost us all a fortune in real terms, not imaginary pretend money terms.
Didn't work though did it? The whole thing went tits up.
Uh, thanks for that.
Wrong and irrelevant, thanks, we're talking about money creation.
DID YOU GO TO OXFORD YOU NEVER MENTIONED IT
No, my complaints are about untrammelled cheap credit and where it comes from. Those other things are different things. Do you see?
House prices appear to be becoming a global problem in many major cities and elsewhere. People couldn't pay those silly prices if no-one lend them the money. But where does that money come from??? Trick question!
I didn't go to Oxford.
It's a gish gallop of a reply because your arguments against central banks are a gish gallop. Many of them are not an argument against central bank currency at all.
Re: Creating money
Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:23 pm
by bjn
I have no idea what plodder is arguing against in the status quo, and why crypto is an answer to whatever he thinks is bad in the status quo. I give up.
Re: Creating money
Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:39 pm
by plodder
bjn wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:23 pm
I have no idea what plodder is arguing against in the status quo, and why crypto is an answer to whatever he thinks is bad in the status quo. I give up.
Google it then. You’ll find millions of conspiratorial nerds banging on about it.
Re: Creating money
Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:59 pm
by dyqik
A lefty economist who generally distrusts big finance speaks, pointing out that most industry attempts to find a use for distributed ledgers have failed, in some cases at pretty high costs.
Paul Krugman - Blockchains, What Are They Good For?
Re: Creating money
Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 6:15 pm
by bjn
Huh! Absolutely nothing! Say it again y'all! (
Edwin Starr, Sorry (Not sorry))