Misplaced kindness and the Highway Code

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IvanV
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Re: Misplaced kindness and the Highway Code

Post by IvanV » Sat Dec 03, 2022 5:37 pm

KAJ wrote:
Fri Dec 02, 2022 4:57 pm
IvanV wrote:
Fri Dec 02, 2022 4:30 pm
<snip>
And yes this does happen in London, regularly. Just the other day, by the British Museum, I was trying to turn right into a side turn on my bicycle. A car coming from the opposite direction, also turning into that road, which I was due to follow, screeched to a halt as it entered that road to wave a patiently waiting pedestrian across. I'd already starting my turn to follow it, and was now stopped at right angles half way across the wrong carriageway with a car bearing down on me...
Highway Code Rule 8
At a junction. When you are crossing or waiting to cross the road, other traffic should give way. Look out for traffic turning into the road, especially from behind you, and cross at a place where drivers can see you. If you have started crossing and traffic wants to turn into the road, you have priority and they should give way (see Rules H2 and 170).
Rule H2
Rule H2 - Rule for drivers, motorcyclists, horse drawn vehicles, horse riders and cyclists
At a junction you should give way to pedestrians crossing or waiting to cross a road into which or from which you are turning.
This is the long-standing and uniformly unobserved imaginary zebra crossing rule. According to this wording, every side road has an imaginary zebra crossing across its entrance.

In the real world, actual zebra crossings are painted in locations where zebra crossing rules apply, including very often in precisely locations such as these. If it was really expected that there was a zebra crossing without painting one, then it wouldn't be necessary to paint one. If there isn't a zebra crossing painted there, pedestrians understand they can't pretend there is, whatever it might say in the highway code. Clearly road users understand they should not run over pedestrians who are already crossing. But we don't give way to pedestrians still on the kerb, because the result is confusion and accidents, and they have no expectation of it.

What happened above is one example of why it is an impractical rule. People like me trying to turn right will be hung out to dry at right angles across the wrong carriage way with cars bearing down on us if they step out and force us to stop there. It also doesn't work turning left either, because the car behind you will rear end you if you screech to halt to give way to a pedestrian who thinks they can step out in front of you turning left.

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TimW
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Re: Misplaced kindness and the Highway Code

Post by TimW » Sat Dec 03, 2022 5:38 pm

Gfamily wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 9:24 am
Waiting to cross and the driver's obligation to give priority if they were pulling out of a side road were added.
When turning at a junction used to cover that last one. No?

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TimW
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Re: Misplaced kindness and the Highway Code

Post by TimW » Sat Dec 03, 2022 5:44 pm

lpm wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 5:19 pm
Flashing to signal to an oncoming car that their headlights are on full beam is the other common usage. That's not in the Highway Code. But seems to work as an unambiguous message.
Or it means your lights aren't on at all. Or somebody else's. Everyone check!

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Re: Misplaced kindness and the Highway Code

Post by KAJ » Sat Dec 03, 2022 5:49 pm

lpm wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 5:19 pm
You should never flash lights or wave to signal. It's not permitted. For good reasons - it's ambiguous, other road users might think the signal is for them, and you might well have missed something else going on in the surroundings.
<snip>
Yes, I stand corrected. The Highway Code only mentions waving in 195. Zebra and parallel crossings. where it says (twice) "do not wave, flash your lights or use your horn to invite pedestrians across; this could be dangerous if another vehicle is approaching".

I don't think the Highway Code explicitly forbids waving in other circumstances (are you sure it's "not permitted" when stationary?), but I agree it's probably unwise.

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Bird on a Fire
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Re: Misplaced kindness and the Highway Code

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sat Dec 03, 2022 8:32 pm

The problem with trying to follow the Código da Estrada in Portugal is that nobody else does. You're much safer following social convention. (Sorry KAJ, I forgot to mention where I do 99% of my driving.)

To communicate with other drivers in a vehicle, during the day you have a fair old range of facial and hand gestures that can be employed, but at night you've only got a few sets of lights to work with, some of which have reserved functions (not that you'd necessarily know it around here, huff puff). In a streetlit city, you don't generally need to tell people you can see them or that they have their main beam on.

The scenario: a December weeknight, late rush hour. You are crawling between two sets of traffic lights at 10 km/h. A full bus has been trying to pull out of a bus stop in front of you for several minutes. What do you do, and how do you communicate your intention?
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Bird on a Fire
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Re: Misplaced kindness and the Highway Code

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sat Dec 03, 2022 8:36 pm

KAJ wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:02 pm
dyqik wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 2:52 pm
KAJ wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 2:49 pm

Highway Code
Letting someone know you are there and see them, and waving to let them know that you are letting them out seems to fall within that.
Emphasis added.

Agreed, with "and", but BoaF said "or" which seems to conflict with Highway Code.

That said, use of headlight flashing "to convey [any] other message" seems close to universal, so I did not mean to criticise BoaF - sorry for brusqueness. Personally, I never flash to convey other messages, and exercise great caution in responding to others flashes :shock: .
Generally a wave in the day. Sometimes a flash at night is unambiguous (e.g. streetlights, no oncoming traffic), but other times it's not a good signal, and I am cautious interpreting them (e.g. they should be accompanied by convincing slowing down if someone's letting me out).
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Re: Misplaced kindness and the Highway Code

Post by Martin_B » Sat Dec 03, 2022 10:47 pm

IvanV wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 5:37 pm
KAJ wrote:
Fri Dec 02, 2022 4:57 pm
IvanV wrote:
Fri Dec 02, 2022 4:30 pm
<snip>
And yes this does happen in London, regularly. Just the other day, by the British Museum, I was trying to turn right into a side turn on my bicycle. A car coming from the opposite direction, also turning into that road, which I was due to follow, screeched to a halt as it entered that road to wave a patiently waiting pedestrian across. I'd already starting my turn to follow it, and was now stopped at right angles half way across the wrong carriageway with a car bearing down on me...
Highway Code Rule 8
At a junction. When you are crossing or waiting to cross the road, other traffic should give way. Look out for traffic turning into the road, especially from behind you, and cross at a place where drivers can see you. If you have started crossing and traffic wants to turn into the road, you have priority and they should give way (see Rules H2 and 170).
Rule H2
Rule H2 - Rule for drivers, motorcyclists, horse drawn vehicles, horse riders and cyclists
At a junction you should give way to pedestrians crossing or waiting to cross a road into which or from which you are turning.
This is the long-standing and uniformly unobserved imaginary zebra crossing rule. According to this wording, every side road has an imaginary zebra crossing across its entrance.

In the real world, actual zebra crossings are painted in locations where zebra crossing rules apply, including very often in precisely locations such as these. If it was really expected that there was a zebra crossing without painting one, then it wouldn't be necessary to paint one. If there isn't a zebra crossing painted there, pedestrians understand they can't pretend there is, whatever it might say in the highway code. Clearly road users understand they should not run over pedestrians who are already crossing. But we don't give way to pedestrians still on the kerb, because the result is confusion and accidents, and they have no expectation of it.

What happened above is one example of why it is an impractical rule. People like me trying to turn right will be hung out to dry at right angles across the wrong carriage way with cars bearing down on us if they step out and force us to stop there. It also doesn't work turning left either, because the car behind you will rear end you if you screech to halt to give way to a pedestrian who thinks they can step out in front of you turning left.
However, the wording of the highway code is quite clear:
Rule H2 - Rule for drivers, motorcyclists, horse drawn vehicles, horse riders and cyclists
At a junction you should give way to pedestrians crossing or waiting to cross a road into which or from which you are turning.
Therefore, there is no need to paint a zebra crossing on every junction, because every junction is a pedestrian crossing; pedestrians have priority over cars turning into or from a side road. Zebra crossings themselves are to allow pedestrians to cross from one side of a road to another.

In your case above, the oncoming car, trying to turn left, did the correct thing (even if it rarely gets done) by waiting for the pedestrian to cross and you were in the wrong by trying to cross when it wasn't clear:
Rule 170 - Do not cross or join a road until there is a gap large enough for you to do so safely.
Unfortunately, this rule means you could be waiting several minutes at a junction sometimes.
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Bird on a Fire
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Re: Misplaced kindness and the Highway Code

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sun Dec 04, 2022 12:23 am

As a pedestrian I don't like those zebra crossings close to junctions, even when marked, because visibility for drivers is poor (especially when crossing lanes, for the reason Martin B alludes to above). So even when they're marked clearly you've got to sidle out gingerly.

I mean there's no easy alternative round busy streets, but as a pedestrian you can't just assume drivers will apply the highway code.
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Re: Misplaced kindness and the Highway Code

Post by Martin_B » Sun Dec 04, 2022 1:02 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 12:23 am
As a pedestrian I don't like those zebra crossings close to junctions, even when marked, because visibility for drivers is poor (especially when crossing lanes, for the reason Martin B alludes to above). So even when they're marked clearly you've got to sidle out gingerly.

I mean there's no easy alternative round busy streets, but as a pedestrian you can't just assume drivers will apply the highway code.
Agree. When I approach a side-road as a pedestrian I look out for traffic and if I see a car indicating to turn into the side-road which might actually do the right thing and wait on the main carriageway for me to cross, I usually stop short of the crossing with my legs together and make very clear hand-signals (I cycle!) that I wish the car to go ahead of me. This:

a) gets the car off the main road more quickly and reduces the chance of it being rear-ended or otherwise causing a problem, and
b) I prefer not to walk in front of 2 tonnes of metal being controlled by someone I don't know; I prefer to let them through and remove that small chance of something untoward happening (another cross-over from cycling!)
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Martin Y
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Re: Misplaced kindness and the Highway Code

Post by Martin Y » Sun Dec 04, 2022 10:20 am

The problem with that approach is you're signalling the driver to go first, against the new rule. While a majority will just go anyway as they haven't absorbed the rule change (what rule change?) others will refuse to go and seek some way to signal that no, you clearly haven't learned the new rule and they're not moving because you have to go first.

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Re: Misplaced kindness and the Highway Code

Post by EACLucifer » Sun Dec 04, 2022 10:27 am

One thing I've noticed about travelling by wheelchair is that drivers are very good at stopping to let me cross whenever they think I'm trying to cross a road. Had a nasty close call with a cyclist though when a car stopped to let me cross at a zebra crossing and the cyclist behind him decided to overtake and damn near hit me. My main fear in those incidents though is crosser tossers - the young lads on small, frequently not road legal, motorcycles - who are just as badly behaved as the worst pedal cyclists, but would hit a lot harder if they did hit me. At least with their shittily tuned drilled pipes I can hear them coming.

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Re: Misplaced kindness and the Highway Code

Post by noggins » Sun Dec 04, 2022 12:34 pm

Martin Y wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 10:20 am
The problem with that approach is you're signalling the driver to go first, against the new rule. While a majority will just go anyway as they haven't absorbed the rule change (what rule change?) others will refuse to go and seek some way to signal that no, you clearly haven't learned the new rule and they're not moving because you have to go first.
Bit pedantic that.

A pedestrian that signals you to proceed is not “waiting to cross the road”

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Re: Misplaced kindness and the Highway Code

Post by discovolante » Sun Dec 04, 2022 12:47 pm

Seems like it's a fairly problematic rule really, if it causes so much confusion.

That being said if you are cycling behind a car and turning right I think you need to be as prepared to stop as the car is, no? The problem with cars beginning to turn and stopping halfway isn't the rule itself, its the car driver not paying attention until it's too late. Which could happen in a number of situations.
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Re: Misplaced kindness and the Highway Code

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Sun Dec 04, 2022 1:33 pm

This thread is amazing.

We should have more threads featuring people who don't understand how society works.
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Re: Misplaced kindness and the Highway Code

Post by lpm » Sun Dec 04, 2022 2:01 pm

We all know how society works. It works badly.
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Re: Misplaced kindness and the Highway Code

Post by Grumble » Sun Dec 04, 2022 2:32 pm

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 1:33 pm
This thread is amazing.

We should have more threads featuring people who don't understand how society works.
I’m sure I can provide further examples of how society and I do not see eye to eye.
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Re: Misplaced kindness and the Highway Code

Post by bjn » Sun Dec 04, 2022 2:35 pm

Does anyone have an opinion on cycle helmets?

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Re: Misplaced kindness and the Highway Code

Post by shpalman » Sun Dec 04, 2022 3:01 pm

Grumble wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 2:32 pm
El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 1:33 pm
This thread is amazing.

We should have more threads featuring people who don't understand how society works.
I’m sure I can provide further examples of how society and I do not see eye to eye.
It's a shame nobody thought to write down a set of rules and guidelines - a sort of "code" if you like - describing and explaining how people should behave around roads and paths and that, you know, highways in general.
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Re: Misplaced kindness and the Highway Code

Post by Grumble » Sun Dec 04, 2022 3:13 pm

shpalman wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 3:01 pm
Grumble wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 2:32 pm
El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 1:33 pm
This thread is amazing.

We should have more threads featuring people who don't understand how society works.
I’m sure I can provide further examples of how society and I do not see eye to eye.
It's a shame nobody thought to write down a set of rules and guidelines - a sort of "code" if you like - describing and explaining how people should behave around roads and paths and that, you know, highways in general.
Obviously those pencil necked desk jockeys who wrote the rules differ from society in some important ways
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now I sin till ten past three

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Re: Misplaced kindness and the Highway Code

Post by insignificant » Sun Dec 04, 2022 3:28 pm

lpm wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 2:01 pm
We all know how society works. It works badly.
We should improve society somewhat

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Martin Y
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Re: Misplaced kindness and the Highway Code

Post by Martin Y » Sun Dec 04, 2022 3:55 pm

noggins wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 12:34 pm
Bit pedantic that.

A pedestrian that signals you to proceed is not “waiting to cross the road”
I don't follow. I've been that pedestrian waiting to cross, inviting a car to go first against the new rule and the driver just staring at me and waiting.

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Re: Misplaced kindness and the Highway Code

Post by EACLucifer » Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:43 pm

insignificant wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 3:28 pm
lpm wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 2:01 pm
We all know how society works. It works badly.
We should improve society somewhat
And yet you still participate in society

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Re: Misplaced kindness and the Highway Code

Post by IvanV » Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:48 pm

Martin_B wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 10:47 pm
However, the wording of the highway code is quite clear:
No it isn't, because when the word "should" is used in the Highway Code, it is not at all clear what the situation is.

When the Highway Code says "must", or the like, it is explaining the law to you. So "must"s are quite clear. But when it uses the word "should" or "do not", if anything is clear about it, it is that there is no law to that effect. It is not clear what these "should"s are. It seems that even when there are consequences, such as death, failing to obey "should"s doesn't necessarily amount to "careless driving". Plenty of people have done things that according to the highway code they "should"n't do, had a collision occasioning death, and been acquitted of causing death by careless driving, let alone dangerous driving. Careless driving is legally defined as when you "fall below the minimum standard expected of a competent and careful driver". So disobeying "should"s doesn't disqualify you from being thought of as a careful and competent driver.

What then is a "should" in the Highway Code? The Highway Code says it is "advisory". What does that mean? In terms of people hoping for road users to obey a "should", well actually it seems to me that one way to interpret it is only as a "kindness" that we can't rely on. And so it can also be an act of misplaced kindness, particularly in the situation that you fail to take into account the effect on other road users of screeching to halt to give way to a pedestrian.

It works both ways. The "should" word has also been applied to the new rule to give bicycles 1.5m when you pass them. As a bicycle user, I have no expectation at all of it being routinely observed, precisely because of that "should" word. A motorist did get prosecuted for a close pass recently. It got onto the news probably because it was so unusual. Though it was a very close pass, and the 1.5m criterion was very little to do with it.

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Re: Misplaced kindness and the Highway Code

Post by Gfamily » Sun Dec 04, 2022 5:20 pm

The 1991 amendment to the 1988 Road Traffic Act gives an obligation to drive with reasonable consideration for other persons using the road (more specifically is says that failing to do so is an offence).
I would expect that, when used in the Highway code, "Should" indicates what is required to be reasonably considerate of other road users, and failure to do that may be used to indicate an offence. It's not absolute, as failing to do a "should" may be reasonable under the circumstances.
But running over a pedestrian crossing over the road at a junction is not excused because it's only a "should" that says you should allow them to cross.
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Re: Misplaced kindness and the Highway Code

Post by noggins » Sun Dec 04, 2022 5:43 pm

Martin Y wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 3:55 pm
noggins wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 12:34 pm
Bit pedantic that.

A pedestrian that signals you to proceed is not “waiting to cross the road”
I don't follow. I've been that pedestrian waiting to cross, inviting a car to go first against the new rule and the driver just staring at me and waiting.
The driver is the pedant not you.

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