Vegan shoes

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Tessa K
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Vegan shoes

Post by Tessa K » Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:31 pm

I accidentally bought vegan trainers (Adidas). I was so pleased to find size 8.5 that I forgot to check what they were made of.

My question is this: vegan shoes are good for animals but given they are made from some sort of plastic/synthetic material, are they good for the environment?

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Re: Vegan shoes

Post by WFJ » Tue Jan 31, 2023 4:01 pm

Vegan leather shoes are just PVC/PU shoes with a marketing budget. Until the beef industry is abolished, I'm not sure any cattle die specifically for leather, so unless you have a strong personal aversion to wearing animal products, there's probably no reason to choose synthetics other than cost or waterproofing.

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Re: Vegan shoes

Post by monkey » Tue Jan 31, 2023 4:19 pm

I am no expert, but I bet the answer is going to be "it depends".

My two thoughts:

Leather seems to be a by product of the meat industry, so does not using it change how many cows are farmed? But there's obviously all the chemical stuff from the tanning to consider too (vs plastic production and/or dying).

Pretty sure every pair of shoes I own has had a massive lump of plastic on the bottom of them, vegan, or not.

ETA: I'm wrong on the 2nd point. Rubber soles.

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Re: Vegan shoes

Post by Woodchopper » Tue Jan 31, 2023 4:57 pm

monkey wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 4:19 pm
Rubber soles.
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Re: Vegan shoes

Post by IvanV » Tue Jan 31, 2023 5:00 pm

What is the carbon footprint/other pollution impact of a leather shoe? There's the agricultural stage, and then the processing stage. Leather is co-produced with meat. Is WFJ right that the meat is the main driver and should take most of the blame for the agricultural stage? Against that, you can read advocacy on the web telling you huge environmental damage is done raising cattle to "satisfy our insatiable demand for leather". My guess was that WFJ was probably right, but I decided to do some back of the envelope, and see if it was obvious.

I read 1 cattle hide makes on average 18 shoes. You get about 200kg of meat off a cow, after boning and trimming. So there is a production of about 22kg of meat per pair of shoes. Obviously it will vary from a strappy sandal to a thigh-high boot, but let's go with an average. According to this data source quoting FAO data, UK consumption of cattle meat was a little under 20kg per person, a few years ago, but tending to fall. Obviously there are some places that eat a lot more beef than us, but the UK still eats twice cattle meat as much as the global average. Ironically the French, who call us les Ros-Bifs, eat more beef than us, though of course in the form steak-frites.

That means we each eat enough beef to make not quite 1 pair of shoes per year. And that's before adding in our leather sofa (guilty), belts, car seats (not guilty), etc.

So on these numbers, I'm not really convinced by WFJ's claim that the driver is the meat rather than the leather. There seems to be a lot meat produced per available leather shoe. I think we have to give a decent proportion of the environmental impact of the cow to the leather.

Then onto production. Leather processing can be hugely polluting, especially in countries that don't regulate it carefully. As well as toxic chemicals escaping to waterways, there are damaging gases evolved from the chemical processing. Probably all rather unnecessary, and avoided in well-controlled countries. The largest leather producers are, from the largest down, China, Brazil, Russia, India and Italy. So a lot of leather comes from places that aren't probably very well controlled for pollution.

Then the alternatives are plastics and fabrics. They say things like, the environmental impact of a cotton tote bag only reduces below the single-use plastic bags once you use the cotton bag roughly 1000 times. Though at least the cotton bag will biodegrade once discarded, whilst discarded plastics accumulate in the environment.

Trade-offs, trade-offs. The environmental impact of the plastic show is different from that of the leather. But cow production and leather production are both high impact activities. I don't think it's a coincidence that you don't see many leather shoes when you go to a less-developed country.

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Re: Vegan shoes

Post by Tessa K » Tue Jan 31, 2023 5:06 pm

If I had more time now, I'd look at the cost of production for both.

I'm assuming pleather is less breathable so there could be sweaty feet issues but I could be wrong.

I normally buy suede trainers but the quality of Adidas suede is not what it was (for everyday wear, not the gym).

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Re: Vegan shoes

Post by dyqik » Tue Jan 31, 2023 5:21 pm

Tessa K wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 5:06 pm
If I had more time now, I'd look at the cost of production for both.

I'm assuming pleather is less breathable so there could be sweaty feet issues but I could be wrong.

I normally buy suede trainers but the quality of Adidas suede is not what it was (for everyday wear, not the gym).
I think the last pair of trainers I bought were vegan (and orthotic). Those have a knit fabric, and so aren't waterproof, but are breathable.

And most pairs of trainers I see now are some kind of mesh fabric.

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Re: Vegan shoes

Post by monkey » Tue Jan 31, 2023 5:29 pm

IvanV wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 5:00 pm
*snip*

Stuff about beef consumption.
What about all the Dairy cows?

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Re: Vegan shoes

Post by IvanV » Tue Jan 31, 2023 5:45 pm

IvanV wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 5:00 pm
I read 1 cattle hide makes on average 18 shoes.
Having read this, and used it in my calculation, I got a bit suspicious about it, and looked a little further. I took that quote back to its source, and discovered it said "18 pairs of shoes". But still it wasn't a terribly reputable source.

So looking around, it seems that 5 to 6 sq m is about the usable amount of leather from a cow. Looking around at how much leather to make a pair of shoes, then to make uppers only for a man's full dress shoe with synthetic sole would be about 0.3 sq m per pair. So that is consistent with the 18 pairs, assuming that's what you mean by a pair of shoes. What's the average shoe I wonder, my guess is a bit smaller than a man's pair of full shoes.

So we are eating enough meat each in Britain for perhaps 2 to 3 pairs of shoes per person per year.

Also I do read that leather supply has been in excess of late. The price has fallen low, some has been thrown away that would normally sell, or salted to preserve it until the market recovers.

So perhaps WFJ was right, at least in the present state of the market Though it seems to be one of those markets that doesn't need a large change to swing from glut to shortage, and change from leather driving the meat to meat driving the leather. Not easy.

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Re: Vegan shoes

Post by IvanV » Tue Jan 31, 2023 5:53 pm

monkey wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 5:29 pm
IvanV wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 5:00 pm
*snip*

Stuff about beef consumption.
What about all the Dairy cows?
Although the production of specialist beef cattle has increased of late, at least in Britain, I think most of our beef still comes from dairy cattle.

There are two parts to that:

The 50% of them that are born male. They mostly get eaten as soon as suitable to be slaughtered, whether young as veal or a bit older as beef, apart from a very small proportion kept for breeding purposes.

The 50% of them that are born female and so kept for milk production. Since their milk production starts to decline after a few years, they will mostly be slaughtered for beef well before their full life span, and while they are still reasonably tender for eating.

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Re: Vegan shoes

Post by Tessa K » Tue Jan 31, 2023 6:14 pm

IvanV wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 5:45 pm
IvanV wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 5:00 pm
I read 1 cattle hide makes on average 18 shoes.
Having read this, and used it in my calculation, I got a bit suspicious about it, and looked a little further. I took that quote back to its source, and discovered it said "18 pairs of shoes". But still it wasn't a terribly reputable source.

So looking around, it seems that 5 to 6 sq m is about the usable amount of leather from a cow. Looking around at how much leather to make a pair of shoes, then to make uppers only for a man's full dress shoe with synthetic sole would be about 0.3 sq m per pair. So that is consistent with the 18 pairs, assuming that's what you mean by a pair of shoes. What's the average shoe I wonder, my guess is a bit smaller than a man's pair of full shoes.

So we are eating enough meat each in Britain for perhaps 2 to 3 pairs of shoes per person per year.

Also I do read that leather supply has been in excess of late. The price has fallen low, some has been thrown away that would normally sell, or salted to preserve it until the market recovers.

So perhaps WFJ was right, at least in the present state of the market Though it seems to be one of those markets that doesn't need a large change to swing from glut to shortage, and change from leather driving the meat to meat driving the leather. Not easy.
it seems that 5 to 6 sq m is about the usable amount of leather from a cow.

That's about how much it took to make my full length leather coat. It weighs a ton (not literally).

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Re: Vegan shoes

Post by monkey » Tue Jan 31, 2023 9:19 pm

IvanV wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 5:53 pm
monkey wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 5:29 pm
IvanV wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 5:00 pm
*snip*

Stuff about beef consumption.
What about all the Dairy cows?
Although the production of specialist beef cattle has increased of late, at least in Britain, I think most of our beef still comes from dairy cattle.

There are two parts to that:

The 50% of them that are born male. They mostly get eaten as soon as suitable to be slaughtered, whether young as veal or a bit older as beef, apart from a very small proportion kept for breeding purposes.

The 50% of them that are born female and so kept for milk production. Since their milk production starts to decline after a few years, they will mostly be slaughtered for beef well before their full life span, and while they are still reasonably tender for eating.
Thanks. I thought the males normally ended up being veal, but wasn't sure if the rest end up as human food or not.

A quick google suggested about 10% of human beef is from dairy herds in the USA, if anyone was wondering.

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Re: Vegan shoes

Post by Fishnut » Tue Jan 31, 2023 9:41 pm

monkey wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 9:19 pm
about 10% of human beef
I don't know if I'm being obtuse but I'm a bit puzzled by this phrasing. Would you mind clarifying?
it's okay to say "I don't know"

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Re: Vegan shoes

Post by monkey » Tue Jan 31, 2023 9:59 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 9:41 pm
monkey wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 9:19 pm
about 10% of human beef
I don't know if I'm being obtuse but I'm a bit puzzled by this phrasing. Would you mind clarifying?
Beef indented for human consumption.

The words came out in the wrong order when I was typing, but it amused me, so I left it.

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Re: Vegan shoes

Post by Gfamily » Tue Jan 31, 2023 10:01 pm

monkey wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 5:29 pm
IvanV wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 5:00 pm
*snip*

Stuff about beef consumption.
What about all the Dairy cows?
Their leather can make shoes, but not sandals, because they lactose.

(sorry, I know this is weighty matters and I will now go and sit on the naughty step)
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Re: Vegan shoes

Post by Boustrophedon » Tue Jan 31, 2023 10:07 pm

monkey wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 4:19 pm
I am no expert, but I bet the answer is going to be "it depends".
<snip>
Pretty sure every pair of shoes I own has had a massive lump of plastic on the bottom of them, vegan, or not.
ETA: I'm wrong on the 2nd point. Rubber soles.
Rubber is a natural polymer of isoprene, but almost all 'rubber' is now synthetic polyisoprene. Whatever I think it counts as plastic. I had a pair of sandals made from recycled car tyre (Michelin by the tread pattern.) but even tyres are synthetic rubber nowadays.
I don't think I own a pair of shoes with actual rubber soles. The Vibram branded soles on my walking boots maybe partly rubber. Almost all soles nowadays are EVAC; Ethylene Vinyl Acetate Copolymers, which are 'extended' with various oils and waxes. Doc Martin's are of course plasticised PVC.
As for uppers (Shoes that is.) I'm wearing trainers of the walking type that are mainly fabric with token panels of leather, I don't suppose I'd miss the leather if they substituted a reasonable synthetic, they're not waterproof of course.
But for waterproof shoes I wear leather, nothing beats it that I have found.
My wife bought me a new winter coat (Regatta great outdoors.) in the sales, it's light, comfy, extremely warm and totally synthetic, it's also very noisy. The only benefit it has over my fleece flying jacket is it's weight. Normally I wear waxed jackets that are at least quiet.

I can understand the philosophy of vegetarianism, but I couldn't go the whole vegan thing, I like cheese and honey too much and much as it pains me to say it, cos I know you'll take the piss but:
I love leather.
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Re: Vegan shoes

Post by monkey » Tue Jan 31, 2023 10:24 pm

Boustrophedon wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 10:07 pm
monkey wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 4:19 pm
I am no expert, but I bet the answer is going to be "it depends".
<snip>
Pretty sure every pair of shoes I own has had a massive lump of plastic on the bottom of them, vegan, or not.
ETA: I'm wrong on the 2nd point. Rubber soles.
Rubber is a natural polymer of isoprene, but almost all 'rubber' is now synthetic polyisoprene. Whatever I think it counts as plastic. I had a pair of sandals made from recycled car tyre (Michelin by the tread pattern.) but even tyres are synthetic rubber nowadays.
I don't think I own a pair of shoes with actual rubber soles. The Vibram branded soles on my walking boots maybe partly rubber. Almost all soles nowadays are EVAC; Ethylene Vinyl Acetate Copolymers, which are 'extended' with various oils and waxes. Doc Martin's are of course plasticised PVC.
Before the ETA, I was thinking about my docs, because that's what pops in my head when I think about shoes. Then I thought twice about what my converse were made of and looked it up, a website said something like "Converse are proud of using natural rubber". There could be stretching of the word natural.

I also found out that the felt on the converse soles that wears off really quickly is there for an import tax dodge. They're really slippers.

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Re: Vegan shoes

Post by Boustrophedon » Tue Jan 31, 2023 10:29 pm

monkey wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 10:24 pm

Before the ETA, I was thinking about my docs, because that's what pops in my head when I think about shoes. Then I thought twice about what my converse were made of and looked it up, a website said something like "Converse are proud of using natural rubber". There could be stretching of the word natural.

I also found out that the felt on the converse soles that wears off really quickly is there for an import tax dodge. They're really slippers.
I am too old to wear Converse' I'd end up looking like a House wannabe. I had a pair of Addis or was it Adidas, the one that's not brushes, but they fell apart way too quickly.
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Re: Vegan shoes

Post by dyqik » Tue Jan 31, 2023 10:40 pm

monkey wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 9:59 pm
Fishnut wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 9:41 pm
monkey wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 9:19 pm
about 10% of human beef
I don't know if I'm being obtuse but I'm a bit puzzled by this phrasing. Would you mind clarifying?
Beef indented for human consumption.
I hadn't realized that the human food supply chain was programmed in Python.

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Re: Vegan shoes

Post by noggins » Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:01 pm

I think you need to compare price.

That 22kg of beef we eat is going to cost the butcher or supermarket £100 ish
while £100 would seem to be able to buy a hell of a lot of raw material leather

If meat production declines, leather price supply will go down, price up, and a whole bunch of stuff thats leather now will switch.

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Re: Vegan shoes

Post by Tessa K » Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:47 pm

noggins wrote:
Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:01 pm
I think you need to compare price.

That 22kg of beef we eat is going to cost the butcher or supermarket £100 ish
while £100 would seem to be able to buy a hell of a lot of raw material leather

If meat production declines, leather price supply will go down, price up, and a whole bunch of stuff thats leather now will switch.
Like drug dealers, supermarkets 'cut' the meat, adding padding to increase the weight and the profit, especially water.

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Re: Vegan shoes

Post by IvanV » Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:27 am

noggins wrote:
Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:01 pm
I think you need to compare price.

That 22kg of beef we eat is going to cost the butcher or supermarket £100 ish
while £100 would seem to be able to buy a hell of a lot of raw material leather

If meat production declines, leather price supply will go down, price up, and a whole bunch of stuff thats leather now will switch.
Good points.

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Re: Vegan shoes

Post by bjn » Fri Feb 03, 2023 12:44 pm

I bought a pair of these out of curiosity. Quite comfy, but I'm not clear on the carbon footprint of them. Made mainly from wool, sugar cane and castor oil.

https://www.allbirds.com/products/mens-wool-runners

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Re: Vegan shoes

Post by basementer » Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:00 pm

bjn wrote:
Fri Feb 03, 2023 12:44 pm
I bought a pair of these out of curiosity. Quite comfy, but I'm not clear on the carbon footprint of them.
https://www.allbirds.com/products/mens-wool-runners
On my version of the site it says "carbon neutral" below the image.
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Re: Vegan shoes

Post by bjn » Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:04 pm

basementer wrote:
Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:00 pm
bjn wrote:
Fri Feb 03, 2023 12:44 pm
I bought a pair of these out of curiosity. Quite comfy, but I'm not clear on the carbon footprint of them.
https://www.allbirds.com/products/mens-wool-runners
On my version of the site it says "carbon neutral" below the image.
They may say that!

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