How to pop a balloon

[lpm]

Any ideas?

This particular balloon is quite high up so you won't be able to reach it with a pin. Even an aeroplane carrying a pin won't get that high.

It's about 37 km up in the sky so not sure if a missile fired from a fighter jet could reach it.

My only idea is to get that guy who jumped out from another balloon from the edge of space. He should be able to pop it as he hurtles past, using a bow and arrow or something. I'd watch the movie.

[Grumble]

I would use a lasso, pull it down a bit first, then use a pin

[IvanV]

Any ideas?

This particular balloon is quite high up so you won't be able to reach it with a pin. Even an aeroplane carrying a pin won't get that high.

It's about 37 km up in the sky so not sure if a missile fired from a fighter jet could reach it.

My only idea is to get that guy who jumped out from another balloon from the edge of space. He should be able to pop it as he hurtles past, using a bow and arrow or something. I'd watch the movie.

I thought they reckoned they could shoot it down, but were concerned about the impact of the debris.

It doesn't seem that using a balloon at 37km for surveillance is a huge issue, given what spy satellites already achieve. So why bother shoot it down? Why bother send it? It seems much more likely it was done for deliberate attention-seeking.

[lpm]

If I couldn't shoot it down, I'd say I could totally shoot it down but was concerned about the impact of the debris.

It might land on a moose or something.

[lpm]

What China says:

It is a civilian airship used for research, mainly meteorological, purposes. Affected by the Westerlies and with limited self-steering capability, the airship deviated far from its planned course.

What China means:

We didn't know about Google maps, thanks for forwarding the link. Yep that would have been a lot easier than sending the balloon.

[Woodchopper]

What China says:

It is a civilian airship used for research, mainly meteorological, purposes. Affected by the Westerlies and with limited self-steering capability, the airship deviated far from its planned course.

What China means:

We didn't know about Google maps, thanks for forwarding the link. Yep that would have been a lot easier than sending the balloon.

There are lots more sensors than cameras.

[Herainestold]

If I couldn't shoot it down, I'd say I could totally shoot it down but was concerned about the impact of the debris.

It might land on a moose or something.

They can intercept missiles in flight, but they can't shoot down a balloon.

[Grumble]

A missile in flight is a clear hazard in itself, a balloon not so much.

[bolo]

They can intercept missiles in flight, and they can shoot down a balloon, but they have chosen not to.

FTFY

[lpm]

So it turns out the Space Needle isn't what I thought it was.

[Herainestold]

They can intercept missiles in flight, and they can shoot down a balloon, but they have chosen not to.

FTFY

For some reason that is difficult to fathom, they are afraid to shoot it down. Why?

[El Pollo Diablo]

This sounds like a job for Superman Richard Branson - he's pretty good at f.cking up balloons

[Martin Y]

It's clearly an experimental balloon.

The experiment is to see what America does about it. The most interesting result for China would be if they eventually bring it down, particularly what that reveals about America's capabilities to intercept stuff at 120,000 ft.

[Herainestold]

It's clearly an experimental balloon.

The experiment is to see what America does about it. The most interesting result for China would be if they eventually bring it down, particularly what that reveals about America's capabilities to intercept stuff at 120,000 ft.

I think you are right. They want to see how the Americans react.

[headshot]

I would use a lasso, pull it down a bit first, then use a pin

Alright, George Bailey....

[IvanV]

It's clearly an experimental balloon.

The experiment is to see what America does about it. The most interesting result for China would be if they eventually bring it down, particularly what that reveals about America's capabilities to intercept stuff at 120,000 ft.

Yes, clearly experimental in that sense.

The other part of such experiments that China conducts is envelope pushing. They see what they can get away with, and then push the envelope a bit further next time, and see if they can get away with that. They start with something innocuous, move on to the fairly innocuous, and after a while it becomes not at all innocuous. And then you notice it has gone so far that reaction has got very difficult.

That's how they obtained effective control of much of the South China Sea.

Trouble-making is unfortunately a relatively easy game in comparison to the converse.

I posed the question earlier, why would you bother shooting it down when it's innocuous? The answer perhaps ought to be to make quite clear that you will shoot anything down that shouldn't be there.

[EACLucifer]

They can intercept missiles in flight, and they can shoot down a balloon, but they have chosen not to.

FTFY

For some reason that is difficult to fathom, they are afraid to shoot it down. Why?

That reason isn't at all difficult to fathom, it's been widely discussed in the media you stupid f.ckwit. The answer is really, really f.cking simple, and widely covered, and it's that they don't want to endanger their own people.

It's got heavy equipment hanging off it. Balloons take a long time to come down, and this means you don't know where it will come down. Balloons of this sort don't pop, as they aren't under much pressure. They leak slowly, and consequently descend slowly. We can see this by looking at how Zeppelin interceptions went - they were exceptionally hard to actually bring down until incendiaries that could ignite their hydrogen lift gas were introduced. It's unlikely (not impossible, as there are potential advantages to it, but unlikely) that this balloon is filled with hydrogen. In addition, they've got low radar signature, basically no thermal signature to speak of, and don't tend to suffer catastrophic damage when hit by cannon rounds - a loose weather balloon once took six days to come down after having about a thousand rounds of 20mm vulcan cannon ammo fired into it. In the long run, the answer is probably something like an airborne version of the sort of laser defence systems that are coming into development now (ie Iron Beam or similar). However they are downed, though, they need to be downed before they reach land, or they'll endanger people when they come down.

Some of these things can manoeuvre, by the way, or sort of manoeuvre - by varying their altitude, they can pick a height where the wind direction suits where they want to go.

The other approach would be to seek to impose political costs for flagrantly violating other nations airspace - the fascist regime in Beijing is of course very fond of violating other countries air, sea and land, including preposterous maritime claims and downright incursions into Indian territory - or to flagrantly violate their airspace with balloons in return. Softness and appeasement do not work on dictatorial scum.

[WFJ]

Pump all the air out of the atmosphere until it pops itself.

[Martin Y]

The mirror image of this might be China demanding everyone identify themselves when passing through its claimed part of the South China Sea, so the American military make a point of crossing the area without identifying themselves.

[EACLucifer]

The mirror image of this might be China demanding everyone identify themselves when passing through its claimed part of the South China Sea, so the American military make a point of crossing the area without identifying themselves.

It's not a mirror image, as continental America belongs to America, but the South China Sea does not belong to China and their claims to it are preposterous and aggressive.

[dyqik]

Seems like it might be a good target for any highly deniable Airbourne Laser or similar test flights that happen to be due soon.

On missiles, the air force did once have an air-launched anti-satellite missile program. That could certainly get that high, as it would have needed get to around 150 km and close to orbital velocity.

If a decision was made to carry out an attack on it despite not having specific weapon system for the job, something resembling a sounding rocket would work. Those typically target observation altitudes of 48-150km, and some can get to 1500 km (but not orbit, which needs far more delta V than a 1500 km ballistic arc).

[tenchboy]

Just ask it out on a hot date and not turn up.
End of.

[EACLucifer]

Seems like it might be a good target for any highly deniable Airbourne Laser or similar test flights that happen to be due soon.

On missiles, the air force did once have an air-launched anti-satellite missile program. That could certainly get that high, as it would have needed get to around 150 km and close to orbital velocity.

If a decision was made to carry out an attack on it despite not having specific weapon system for the job, something resembling a sounding rocket would work. Those typically target observation altitudes of 48-150km, and some can get to 1500 km (but not orbit, which needs far more delta V than a 1500 km ballistic arc).

We know that lasers can bring down balloons reliably as Iron Beam was tested against them due to the threat from Hamas using balloons to carry incendiaries/explosives/booby traps

If an appropriate radar lock can be attained (the balloon itself won't show up easily, but the stuff hanging off it might), then a long range air-to-air missile might do the trick. A modified F-15 once got up to over a hundred thousand feet with a zoom, and an unmodified one probably wouldn't do much worse. If an AMRAAM can lock onto the balloon's gubbins, launching it from the near apogee of a zoom gets it reasonably close and going the right way at a reasonable clip. If AMRAAM won't cut it, the MBDA Meteor is designed for even longer range and to lock onto small targets, though it's got an airbreathing engine, which might not like it so much up there.

The main challenge would be the aircraft needs to get a radar lock, the missile then needs to get a radar lock, and the missiles fuze needs to detect the balloon too. Then there's still the issue of how much damage the warhead would do, and where the damn thing comes down.

The A-Sat program you mention used a similar technique, with an F-15 climbing at full power to give the missile a head start.

[Martin Y]

Seems like it might be a good target for any highly deniable Airbourne Laser or similar test flights that happen to be due soon.

If China wanted to know whether the US did indeed have such highly deniable capabilities, dangling a thing in American skies and waiting to see what takes a pot shot at it would be a handy way to learn. Rather like Ron Perlman in Enemy At The Gates, raising his steel helmet to tempt snipers.

[dyqik]

Seems like it might be a good target for any highly deniable Airbourne Laser or similar test flights that happen to be due soon.

If China wanted to know whether the US did indeed have such highly deniable capabilities, dangling a thing in American skies and waiting to see what takes a pot shot at it would be a handy way to learn. Rather like Ron Perlman in Enemy At The Gates, raising his steel helmet to tempt snipers.

A laser pulse would probably just put a hole in the envelope, and make it sink a little bit faster than expected. Not exactly hard evidence.