Scrutable

Some Moron MP wrote:...international socialist concept... untold economic damage... will take away personal freedoms...

Apparently you get two permission slips per week to leave your 15-minute zone. But The Magna Carta says any freeman of the land can ignore the border guards.

This is only going to get worse, isn't it. We need to urgently reframe it as "guarantee a pub within 15 minutes of everyone".

Spiked article from October, saying the concept came from "an unholy mix of the UK Labour Party, the American plutocracy, the United Nations and French academia.": https://www.spiked-online.com/2022/10/2 ... nute-city/

On the plus side it might help bring down Oxford's outrageous property prices.

Wow, how is it that someone can take a positive - you'd have all the basics you need within a short distance, so car use would be cut down as they would (for most people*, most of the time) be unnecessary - and suddenly tack on negative stuff that wasn't there?: if everything is within a 15 walk, then we'll take away your car so you can't go anywhere.

Our (what once was, a long time ago, a village) now suburb of Bristol did a recent poll asking what people wanted to see in the "high street". At the moment, outside of a Sainsbury's Local and a Co-op, all the other shops are estate agents, charity shops and coffee shops, so the answer is pretty much anything. There used to be two banks and two building societies, now none. Further on, the next area has a couple of greengrocers, a bakers and a butchers**, but it's a good 30 mins walk. I'd love to be able to have things in a shortish walking distance.

*obviously some people aren't able to walk everywhere so easily.
**and a brilliantly bonkers hardware store - it seems to have everything, but as it's so full you can barely walk around inside it and no apparent system or signage as to where things are, you just ask and they go and find it for you.

Promote self on social media -> set up a Substack with a $10 per month subscription -> get a thousand people to sign up -> live in the manner to which you would like to become accustomed.

Downside - will require constantly having to think of new things to be angry about on the internet.

We need to make automobile driving and ownership more expensive and onerous. That is the flip side of encouraging amenities to enable the 15 minute city.

Herainestold wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:29 pm

We need to make automobile driving and ownership more expensive and onerous. That is the flip side of encouraging amenities to enable the 15 minute city.

It’s not really connected at all. There are also ULEZs being proposed, but they aren’t necessarily linked.

Tedious $piked Contrarian wrote:Oxford as Britain’s oldest seat of learning – but, according to The Sunday Times, it is better ‘known to its residents for its gridlocked traffic’. In past decades, town planners might have looked at this problem of high levels of congestion and drawn up plans for new and wider roads.

So ... how's that working out then?

I don't know about cities, but Nailsworth, Gloucs., was a pretty good place to live where you rarely had to leave town to get most things (white goods and new furniture being the obvious exceptions). There was a largish Morrisons, Tesco express, 2 butchers, a greengrocer, 3 bakeries, a hardware store where you could buy 3 screws, 2 pubs, the best deli/fishmongers within 30 miles plus the usual - 3 Estate agents, loads of coffee shops, a florist etc., etc. 2 award winning fine dining restaurants and other eateries. All within 15 mins walk of the 6,000 or so residents. 10 minute bus ride to Stroud railway station. Lots of yummy mummies with big SUVs mind, even though school buses were plentiful. There were a fair few 'alternatives' who didn't own cars.

By the time I left it had become really pricey. When I moved there it was dirt cheap.

People will always want their private transport until they're priced out of it.

Little waster wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:56 pm

Tedious $piked Contrarian wrote:Oxford as Britain’s oldest seat of learning – but, according to The Sunday Times, it is better ‘known to its residents for its gridlocked traffic’. In past decades, town planners might have looked at this problem of high levels of congestion and drawn up plans for new and wider roads.

So ... how's that working out then?

You can't drive much of the very centre of Oxford because of roads closed to you. This, thought strange in Britain, is pretty common in many historic cities on the continent. The consequence is good conditions for cycling and buses. Buses are excellent and well used in Oxford, and far more people use bikes than most other places.

When I go to Oxford, I usually take my bike on the train; or else in the back of my car and park at a friend's house in the suburbs; or sometimes use the park & ride. By chance I'm going there both tomorrow and a week later for various events. As I cycle around Oxford, mostly the traffic is pretty light. It can be a bit queued up near the station. Because if you do approach the city centre in a car, you are committing your self to a tortuous journey. And a car is not much use to you to get around Oxford, given the practical restrictions. There is high use of bikes and buses. It's a bit like what they say in Amsterdam - you can drive your car in Amsterdam, but that's your own fault.

On the other hand, it has driven some employers out of central Oxford, because it was no longer practical for their less local employees to drive to work.

I did take some interest in the Oxford's upcoming plans at one point, because I took part in a tender to advise them on related things - a tender which got cancelled. Oxford were interested in creating some more restrictions on car traffic, such as barriers only permeable to bikes, gates only some cars can go through, etc. They had previously made some fairly modest proposals for just one or two more barriers, but had got slaughtered on it, because they hadn't adequately assessed all the impacts. So they left it for a while, and were then proposing a proper process of designing such restrictions, which would be carefully assessed and with proper consultations at all stages, to avoid the bear-trap they fell into the previous time. There was no mention at that time of making a charge for leaving your zone frequently.

I think this kind of thing is pretty common on the continent, where people accept that free-for-alls to drive around historic city centres is just infeasible. But Britain made the mistake of seeing the car as the future.

Opti wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 10, 2023 4:10 pm

People will always want their private transport until they're priced out of it.

Exactly right.

Looking at the smallprint, - clearly history's greatest monsters

"
However, it is important to note that travel to other areas of Oxford will be permitted by alternative routes, such as the ring road surrounding the city, at any time. Residents will also be able to apply for permits to drive through filters and into other neighbourhoods for up to 100 days a year, while Oxfordshire residents will be able to secure permits for up to 25 days a year. Free travel through filters will be allowed by bus, bike, taxi, scooter, and walking. Exemptions will also be provided for carers, blue badge holders, business, and emergency services.
"
https://www.oxfordstudent.com/2023/01/2 ... ntroversy/

To be fair to the critics, that does amount to rather more than making facilities available locally. It may be a necessary restriction on personal freedom (there are a lot of those), but it is one and pretending otherwise is a bit disingenuous.

I've been giving thought to a carless future, although much more in terms of my own likely health and abilities than city planning. Theres a lot that I'd miss with the end of personal mobility, and some of it would apply to the broader population. Many opponents are people like me who've had the best of the age of the car, and will be hard to persuade away from it. Possibly this is generational and will need to wait for oldsters to die off, or at least disappear from public life.

I'm familiar with Runcorn New Town, which was built as with a mix of Private and Development Corporation estates.
Each estate had a Local Centre, where shops, schools and other facilities (Play Centre, GPs practice, etc), and there was a dedicated busway that linked the centres of each of the estates. So, this was built on this '15 minute' model.
What is relevant is that, on the whole, other than the busway, and footways, there were (and still are) no roads directly linking the estates, so no car travel directly between them. Rather, a dual-carriage expressway ran around the outside for people travelling between the areas of housing and industrial/commercial areas.
There are problems with the limitations, as most of the local centre shops are small, with limited range of stock (particularly fresh fruit and veg), so affordable shopping for most people requires travel, but most people everywhere have to travel to get to a range of shops, and to work, but there aren't any ratruns available for people to use by preference over the expressway.
The busways would be ideal (the idea was that 50% of travel around the town would be by bus), but the services are now too expensive to be usable by those who need to use them, and lack of use means they're infrequent and often non-existent after early evening.

So, it can work - on the whole it works there, though, to some extent there are issues - but people using ratruns ain't one of them.

Oxford has the problem that the only routes between many housing areas are through the center, or around the ring road, due to the lack of river crossings inside the ring road.

For example, preventing cars going through the center turns the trip from Jericho to the Aldi and other large stores on Botley Road from a 1.5 mile journey through the congested center to a 6 mile journey via the equally congested ring road.

Many of the neighborhoods are too small or crowded to have large stores in them, meaning that groceries etc. will be more expensive in smaller stores.

Opti wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 10, 2023 4:10 pm

I don't know about cities, but Nailsworth, Gloucs., was a pretty good place to live where you rarely had to leave town to get most things (white goods and new furniture being the obvious exceptions). There was a largish Morrisons, Tesco express, 2 butchers, a greengrocer, 3 bakeries, a hardware store where you could buy 3 screws, 2 pubs, the best deli/fishmongers within 30 miles plus the usual - 3 Estate agents, loads of coffee shops, a florist etc., etc. 2 award winning fine dining restaurants and other eateries. All within 15 mins walk of the 6,000 or so residents. 10 minute bus ride to Stroud railway station. Lots of yummy mummies with big SUVs mind, even though school buses were plentiful. There were a fair few 'alternatives' who didn't own cars.

By the time I left it had become really pricey. When I moved there it was dirt cheap.

People will always want their private transport until they're priced out of it.

Trouble with living somewhere a bit bigger is the middle of town is now more like 40 mins walk away, and local means corner shops.

Within 15 mins we have a little 1950s parade of shops; small Co-op, chemist, sub post office, hairdresser and off licence, plus one horrible pub currently shut, also one posh pub if you walk the other way, out of town down an unlit narrow lane to the next village. So, other than for basics like a pint o' milk, we drive.

I do miss Ealing, back in the '90s. Didn't need a car. (But I eventually got one anyway and got lazy and and that's when I started putting all this weight on...)

Martin Y wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 10, 2023 6:28 pm

[

I do miss Ealing, back in the '90s. Didn't need a car. (But I eventually got one anyway and got lazy and and that's when I started putting all this weight on...)

We lived in Ealing for most of the 90's. Just south of the Broadway, it was excellent, didn't need a car - we had 2, but my business was cars. I could even walk to see Brentford at Griffin Park.

Opti wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 10, 2023 6:53 pm

Martin Y wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 10, 2023 6:28 pm

[

I do miss Ealing, back in the '90s. Didn't need a car. (But I eventually got one anyway and got lazy and and that's when I started putting all this weight on...)

We lived in Ealing for most of the 90's. Just south of the Broadway, it was excellent, didn't need a car - we had 2, but my business was cars. I could even walk to see Brentford at Griffin Park.

I’ve always fancied a Pint of Large at the Flying Swan.

I saw Brentford play Sunderland at the Bungalow of Shite just before lockdown (in with the Brentford fans).

By halftime the Brentford fans outnumbered the Mackems, by full time the players outnumbered them.

Little waster wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:04 pm

Opti wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 10, 2023 6:53 pm

Martin Y wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 10, 2023 6:28 pm

[

I do miss Ealing, back in the '90s. Didn't need a car. (But I eventually got one anyway and got lazy and and that's when I started putting all this weight on...)

We lived in Ealing for most of the 90's. Just south of the Broadway, it was excellent, didn't need a car - we had 2, but my business was cars. I could even walk to see Brentford at Griffin Park.

I’ve always fancied a Pint of Large at the Flying Swan.

Going to be a bit difficult to do that. The pub that inspired the Flying Swan is no more.

I can have a pint at the bar though, 'cos I have a relic of it. Came in a box and with a certificate of authentification and everything.

monkey wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:17 pm

Little waster wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:04 pm

Opti wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 10, 2023 6:53 pm

We lived in Ealing for most of the 90's. Just south of the Broadway, it was excellent, didn't need a car - we had 2, but my business was cars. I could even walk to see Brentford at Griffin Park.

I’ve always fancied a Pint of Large at the Flying Swan.

Going to be a bit difficult to do that. The pub that inspired the Flying Swan is no more.

I can have a pint at the bar though, 'cos I have a relic of it. Came in a box and with a certificate of authentification and everything.

Hmm, the nearest Brentford to me is in South Dakota. It's also the nearest Brentford to monkey, should he want to put the bar in its rightful* place.

dyqik wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:19 pm

monkey wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:17 pm

Little waster wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:04 pm

I’ve always fancied a Pint of Large at the Flying Swan.

Going to be a bit difficult to do that. The pub that inspired the Flying Swan is no more.

I can have a pint at the bar though, 'cos I have a relic of it. Came in a box and with a certificate of authentification and everything.

Hmm, the nearest Brentford to me is in South Dakota. It's also the nearest Brentford to monkey, should he want to put the bar in its rightful* place.

Given that Google didn't bother streetviewing it's 5 or so streets, I think it's more likely I'll end up in the original Brentford before that one.

monkey wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:33 pm

dyqik wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:19 pm

monkey wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:17 pm

Going to be a bit difficult to do that. The pub that inspired the Flying Swan is no more.

I can have a pint at the bar though, 'cos I have a relic of it. Came in a box and with a certificate of authentification and everything.

Hmm, the nearest Brentford to me is in South Dakota. It's also the nearest Brentford to monkey, should he want to put the bar in its rightful* place.

Given that Google didn't bother streetviewing it's 5 or so streets, I think it's more likely I'll end up in the original Brentford before that one.

Yeah, I was more surprised by the lack of places called Brentford in the US. Although there are two Brentford Halls in Cambridge, MA.

I can’t find the tweet now but someone was suggesting that in 15 minute cities cyclists will have to have QR codes all that their entitlement to cross into the next neighbourhood can be verified. This was clearly next level trolling as the people getting aerated about 15 minute cities are exactly the same people who are always whining that cyclists should have to have number plates.

FFS, this was on my local FB feed just now My reply

Martin Y wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 10, 2023 6:28 pm

Trouble with living somewhere a bit bigger is the middle of town is now more like 40 mins walk away, and local means corner shops.

Within 15 mins we have a little 1950s parade of shops; small Co-op, chemist, sub post office, hairdresser and off licence, plus one horrible pub currently shut, also one posh pub if you walk the other way, out of town down an unlit narrow lane to the next village. So, other than for basics like a pint o' milk, we drive.

Years ago, in Mexico, I remember corner shops part of a chain run by the government, that offered goods at comparable prices to the big city markets.
You need something like that so you are not penalizing people for shopping local. Either that or cheap efficient transit to larger centres for shopping, but that kind of defeats the concept. If people can get everything they need and want within 15 minutes, there will be no need to go to bigger centres.