Scrutable

EACLucifer wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:31 pm

Spoke to a (also disabled) friend about this the other day. We agreed a lot of the protestors were cranks, but also deeply concerned. Friend mentioned someone on their own street who'd had to move out of her home earlier than otherwise because the f.cking parking rules there made it almost impossible to get carers - nothing wrong with parking rules as such but need to be implemented in ways that don't make it overwhelmingly difficult for disabled/elderly people to get carers. Same applies to road closures, traffic restrictions - could mean people who moved into their houses on the understanding that they could have such workers drive to their houses will no longer be able to do so.

And before the insufferable bike c.nts chime in with idiotic claims the carers could use bicycles, it is not within the power of an elderly or disabled person to choose how their carers arrive, and they may find that many care firms just stop covering their areas. In addition, many people depend on care from friends and relatives, including things like delivering shopping, and people doing that sort of peer care for disabled people are more likely to be disabled than you think (not that the "butyoucouldjusts" ever stop to think).

From the guardian article

There are also large numbers of exemptions. It will only apply to private cars, but not to those driven by registered carers, health and care workers, people with a blue badge for disability, those who own local businesses and various others.

Gfamily wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:08 pm

EACLucifer wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:31 pm

Spoke to a (also disabled) friend about this the other day. We agreed a lot of the protestors were cranks, but also deeply concerned. Friend mentioned someone on their own street who'd had to move out of her home earlier than otherwise because the f.cking parking rules there made it almost impossible to get carers - nothing wrong with parking rules as such but need to be implemented in ways that don't make it overwhelmingly difficult for disabled/elderly people to get carers. Same applies to road closures, traffic restrictions - could mean people who moved into their houses on the understanding that they could have such workers drive to their houses will no longer be able to do so.

And before the insufferable bike c.nts chime in with idiotic claims the carers could use bicycles, it is not within the power of an elderly or disabled person to choose how their carers arrive, and they may find that many care firms just stop covering their areas. In addition, many people depend on care from friends and relatives, including things like delivering shopping, and people doing that sort of peer care for disabled people are more likely to be disabled than you think (not that the "butyoucouldjusts" ever stop to think).

From the guardian article

There are also large numbers of exemptions. It will only apply to private cars, but not to those driven by registered carers, health and care workers, people with a blue badge for disability, those who own local businesses and various others.

Which immediately puts the burden of bureaucracy on the disabled.

Additionally, a whole lot of people fall through the cracks - becoming a registered carer takes time and effort and it doesn't really work when someone gets help from a distributed group of people, and blue badges can only be used for journeys the badge holder is making, not journeys made on their behalf.

But thanks for reminding everyone that able bodied people just don't even see the obstacles they place in between us and normal participation in society.

EACLucifer wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:17 pm

But thanks for reminding everyone that able bodied people just don't even see the obstacles they place in between us and normal participation in society.

But you seem to be deliberately not seeing the attempts to mitigate. Maybe reduced traffic passing through residential areas would help mobility - it's not as though it's f.cking paradise at the moment.

Gfamily wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:25 pm

EACLucifer wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:17 pm

But thanks for reminding everyone that able bodied people just don't even see the obstacles they place in between us and normal participation in society.

But you seem to be deliberately not seeing the attempts to mitigate. Maybe reduced traffic passing through residential areas would help mobility - it's not as though it's f.cking paradise at the moment.

"Deliberately?" f.ck off. It's not that I can't see the attempts to mitigate, it's that I know how they go in practice due to having first hand f.cking experience of these things. Assuming that concerns about this are bad faith is getting into the realms of prejudice.

How long do you think it takes between getting too ill to walk any distance and getting a blue badge? How reliably do you think a wheelchair user can even get on a bus? How easy is it to book an adapted cab? How often is the cab that turns up when one does so actually adapted? How are two wheelchair users meant to travel together on public transport?

EACLucifer wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:17 pm

Gfamily wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:08 pm

From the guardian article

There are also large numbers of exemptions. It will only apply to private cars, but not to those driven by registered carers, health and care workers, people with a blue badge for disability, those who own local businesses and various others.

Which immediately puts the burden of bureaucracy on the disabled.

Additionally, a whole lot of people fall through the cracks - becoming a registered carer takes time and effort and it doesn't really work when someone gets help from a distributed group of people, and blue badges can only be used for journeys the badge holder is making, not journeys made on their behalf.

But thanks for reminding everyone that able bodied people just don't even see the obstacles they place in between us and normal participation in society.

Very important points. As someone who has spent a great deal of time caring for people with disabilities - not even sure what a "registered carer" is? Registered with who?

Many people with serious illnesses and disabilities depend on an extended network of family and friends who come by to deliver help and care. They won't be registered with anyone. But for the person they care for - their help could be critical.

Even though the rules have supposedly been modified - it's still very for parents to get blue badges for children with some learning disabilities.

Gfamily wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:25 pm

EACLucifer wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:17 pm

But thanks for reminding everyone that able bodied people just don't even see the obstacles they place in between us and normal participation in society.

But you seem to be deliberately not seeing the attempts to mitigate. Maybe reduced traffic passing through residential areas would help mobility - it's not as though it's f.cking paradise at the moment.

That traffic reduction is not much use if you're basically bed bound - need to be hoisted out of bed to use the commode or get into a wheelchair - but the carer present won't do it without a second person to help - and your family member who needs to drop by to help takes ages to get there because they have to walk or take the bus.

The whole bureaucracy is unnecessary. Blue badges should be given to anyone who requests one, so long as they sign to confirm they are eligible.

We had problems with people visiting to give appropriate care to one of my family members because of traffic restrictions. I’m fine with the traffic restrictions we have in principle as it massively cut down on rat runs. However the problems the restrictions raised aren’t insignificant, even for able bodied people.

It’s all automated by ANPR around my way. Would assigning some number of daily virtual permits to a disabled person which can then be “spent” as they see fit be workable? It means they or a carer/family member will need to be able to navigate a website or similar. No doubt some one would abuse it in someway, but people always do.

bjn wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 24, 2023 8:01 am

It’s all automated by ANPR around my way. Would assigning some number of daily virtual permits to a disabled person which can then be “spent” as they see fit be workable? It means they or a carer/family member will need to be able to navigate a website or similar. No doubt some one would abuse it in someway, but people always do.

That's the kind of system that was in place in the case I mentioned earlier - if it can't reliably be navigated by someone with significant impairment (which it just can't be if it relies on computer access) then it doesn't work. I've run into the system in place on that street as well, incidentally - ended up on the phone to some jobsworth as their computer system demanded not just registration but also colour and body style, and funnily enough there wasn't an option for Trike, let alone flatbed trike, and his attitude was very much "well if you get fined because our wardens don't know you are visiting a resident because our system is sh.t it's your fault for having an unusual vehicle). Got it sorted in the end, but it took quite some time and I couldn't see someone as ill as, say, my mum before she went to the hospice coping with it. Notably in the case of that street, the system could be radically improved by a) simplifying the visitor permit system to only require the registration and b) in the case of someone receiving long term regular care visits, to designate a space for their carers so they don't have to interact with the system every time they get a care visit longer than (IIRC) half an hour.

EACLucifer wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 24, 2023 2:09 pm

bjn wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 24, 2023 8:01 am

It’s all automated by ANPR around my way. Would assigning some number of daily virtual permits to a disabled person which can then be “spent” as they see fit be workable? It means they or a carer/family member will need to be able to navigate a website or similar. No doubt some one would abuse it in someway, but people always do.

That's the kind of system that was in place in the case I mentioned earlier - if it can't reliably be navigated by someone with significant impairment (which it just can't be if it relies on computer access) then it doesn't work. I've run into the system in place on that street as well, incidentally - ended up on the phone to some jobsworth as their computer system demanded not just registration but also colour and body style, and funnily enough there wasn't an option for Trike, let alone flatbed trike, and his attitude was very much "well if you get fined because our wardens don't know you are visiting a resident because our system is sh.t it's your fault for having an unusual vehicle). Got it sorted in the end, but it took quite some time and I couldn't see someone as ill as, say, my mum before she went to the hospice coping with it. Notably in the case of that street, the system could be radically improved by a) simplifying the visitor permit system to only require the registration and b) in the case of someone receiving long term regular care visits, to designate a space for their carers so they don't have to interact with the system every time they get a care visit longer than (IIRC) half an hour.

This is something that seems to crop up far too often. Where the systems are (just about) okay for someone like me to navigate but must be horrible and stressful for someone who is not computer and smartphone literate, which of course disproportionately includes those who need such services.

jimbob wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 24, 2023 3:44 pm

EACLucifer wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 24, 2023 2:09 pm

bjn wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 24, 2023 8:01 am

It’s all automated by ANPR around my way. Would assigning some number of daily virtual permits to a disabled person which can then be “spent” as they see fit be workable? It means they or a carer/family member will need to be able to navigate a website or similar. No doubt some one would abuse it in someway, but people always do.

That's the kind of system that was in place in the case I mentioned earlier - if it can't reliably be navigated by someone with significant impairment (which it just can't be if it relies on computer access) then it doesn't work. I've run into the system in place on that street as well, incidentally - ended up on the phone to some jobsworth as their computer system demanded not just registration but also colour and body style, and funnily enough there wasn't an option for Trike, let alone flatbed trike, and his attitude was very much "well if you get fined because our wardens don't know you are visiting a resident because our system is sh.t it's your fault for having an unusual vehicle). Got it sorted in the end, but it took quite some time and I couldn't see someone as ill as, say, my mum before she went to the hospice coping with it. Notably in the case of that street, the system could be radically improved by a) simplifying the visitor permit system to only require the registration and b) in the case of someone receiving long term regular care visits, to designate a space for their carers so they don't have to interact with the system every time they get a care visit longer than (IIRC) half an hour.

This is something that seems to crop up far too often. Where the systems are (just about) okay for someone like me to navigate but must be horrible and stressful for someone who is not computer and smartphone literate, which of course disproportionately includes those who need such services.

Also remember that being disabled is utterly exhausting. It's living in a world where there is always more to be done than one can do.

The notion of encouraging ppl to not use their cars is good. This plan sux tho bc of all the reasons already outlined by you all.

It's much worse where I live. The historic city center is still a relative cluster-f.ck, but there's no easy getting to it from pretty much anywhere. I have a gf who lives downtown, and you could almost go without a car if you worked from home or somewhere close. Which is real nice for her, but impractical or impossible for most.

San Antonio is HUGE. Not just by population, but by size. I can walk from my suburb house to a grocery store and a few restaurants and businesses within 15 minutes, but a hardware store would be an hour walk each way. And it's laid out in ever widening circles with haphazardly crossing cross streets that don't lend well to public transportation

And the busses suck. I can walk to Leon valley in just under an hour, but it takes 2.5 hours by bus. There are essentially no trains in the whole city. Since Uber/lyft has driven away the cabbies, they are often your only real option if you don't drive.

So given the fact that much of the population here is armed to the teeth and convinced that anything that's good for the planet is of the devil and directly an assault on their God given right to be a complete a..hole to everyone else, solutions such as the 15 minute city, even if it was a good idea, just can't happen here.

Gfamily wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 10, 2023 11:51 pm

FFS, this was on my local FB feed just now
15 M.jpg

My reply
dont be daft.jpg

Oh, but the sign is bright yellow and red! Panic everyone! Run around in circles!

shpalman wrote: ↑

Sat Apr 08, 2023 9:53 am

FB_IMG_1680947556962.jpg

It’s a fair point

I came across this graphic the other day on a presentation on the economics of town planning. Since they sourced it from somewhere else, I think I can quote it.

Only a handful of sq km tiles in Britain has more than 20,000 people living in it. Whereas our neighbours, especially the French and Spanish, have substantial areas with densities much higher than that. The French and Spanish understand the benefits of urban density, and have planned their cities, and indeed small towns and even larger villages, accordingly, even though they have more space for sprawl than us.

I've split the discussion on incomes, education and inequality and started a new thread: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3836&p=145952

Mark Harper, Secretary of State for Transport, sounding off about "local councils deciding how often you can go to the shops"

Seems to me that a lot of the paranoia wouldn’t have happened before 2020. Looks like an extended reaction to the Covid lockdowns.

Woodchopper wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 02, 2023 11:23 am

Seems to me that a lot of the paranoia wouldn’t have happened before 2020. Looks like an extended reaction to the Covid lockdowns.

Agreed. It seems people have taken 'wouldn't it be nice if you could walk to work/the shops/the doctors like you could in the old days' (something you'd think would really appeal to conservative types) and twisted it into some dystopian scheme to trap everyone into a 15 minute circle around their home.

Fishnut wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 02, 2023 11:56 am

Woodchopper wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 02, 2023 11:23 am

Seems to me that a lot of the paranoia wouldn’t have happened before 2020. Looks like an extended reaction to the Covid lockdowns.

Agreed. It seems people have taken 'wouldn't it be nice if you could walk to work/the shops/the doctors like you could in the old days' (something you'd think would really appeal to conservative types) and twisted it into some dystopian scheme to trap everyone into a 15 minute circle around their home.

The creation of low traffic neighbourhoods seems to have fed into the paranoia.

JQH wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 02, 2023 3:01 pm

Fishnut wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 02, 2023 11:56 am

Woodchopper wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 02, 2023 11:23 am

Seems to me that a lot of the paranoia wouldn’t have happened before 2020. Looks like an extended reaction to the Covid lockdowns.

Agreed. It seems people have taken 'wouldn't it be nice if you could walk to work/the shops/the doctors like you could in the old days' (something you'd think would really appeal to conservative types) and twisted it into some dystopian scheme to trap everyone into a 15 minute circle around their home.

The creation of low traffic neighbourhoods seems to have fed into the paranoia.

I pointed out to someone on that Facebook that we (in my local gossip page) already live in a 15 minute area. Then they flipped to ranting about climate change lockdowns.

I (almost) live in a 15 minute area. 20 minutes more realistically. My work and doctors are within 20 minutes walk and the supermarket and (when I remember to go) swimming pool are within a 20 minute cycle away from where I live. And I live on the outskirts of my town. I wish we had more shops (even the charity shops are closing) but I can get by without needing a car for much of my daily existence. It's something I've not really appreciated until 15 minute cities became such a hot topic.

There were definitely times during lockdown where I felt trapped and isolated, and I still haven't got out of the mindset of Bristol being a big and scary city that needs proper planning to visit (which is a bit concerning given I went to school there and have worked there multiple times over the years) but I'm not trapped. When I do feel trapped it's be more because of poor and expensive public transport as I don't drive (though the £2 bus tickets have been fantastic, it's a shame they end this month), and poorly maintained roads caused by ever-heavier vehicles that mean that cycling involves slaloming around potholes and walking in the rain means constant vigilance to ensure I'm not walking past them as a car goes over them otherwise I get soaked.

Fishnut wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 02, 2023 3:56 pm

I (almost) live in a 15 minute area. 20 minutes more realistically. My work and doctors are within 20 minutes walk and the supermarket and (when I remember to go) swimming pool are within a 20 minute cycle away from where I live. And I live on the outskirts of my town. I wish we had more shops (even the charity shops are closing) but I can get by without needing a car for much of my daily existence. It's something I've not really appreciated until 15 minute cities became such a hot topic.

Indeed, for many years I lived within 15 minutes walk of my workplace, a shopping centre with supermarket and GP, a railway station, and a large open space. It was excellent. The only reason I moved (or indeed learned to drive) is because the job moved first.

I'll be moving soon to the boomer version of a 15 minute neighbourhood - a small town as we old folk call them. If I was still working employment would be a commute (probably hybrid WFH) , and the majority of my social/hobby life pretty much needs a car.