Scrutable

Awful news yesterday about Brianna Ghey being murdered. I didn’t realise till this morning that she was trans, and I wouldn’t mention it except it seems plausible that it’s relevant to the case. I work near Culcheth and have several colleagues who live there, there’s a reasonable chance I’m only 2 steps away from her. And one of my kids feels trans. This is all a bit much.

It appears that two fifteen year olds have been arrested. If they did it a teenager being killed by other teenagers seems even worse.

This wasn’t intended to be a thread about teen murder in general. Tragic though they are.

Grumble wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 13, 2023 1:58 pm

Awful news yesterday about Brianna Ghey being murdered. I didn’t realise till this morning that she was trans, and I wouldn’t mention it except it seems plausible that it’s relevant to the case. I work near Culcheth and have several colleagues who live there, there’s a reasonable chance I’m only 2 steps away from her. And one of my kids feels trans. This is all a bit much.

I can see how that would feel a bit close to home

Currently, Cheshire police are saying it isn't a hate crime, but are "open-minded" as to whether Brianna's gender was a factor in the murder. I'm skeptical, personally. Apparently Brianna had been bullied a lot for being trans, so I'd be very surprised if that wasn't a factor.

Obviously, quite a lot of awful behaviour from the usual crowds on social in response to this, from people who seem to think it very important that her death certificate record her as male. The Daily Mail contacted her dentist to find out her deadname. The rail journalist and former candidate for Labour mayor, Christian Wolmar, posted a vile reply on twitter*. Graham Linehan being the vile prick he's made himself known as over the last several years. Various other "gender critical" transphobes acting like total c.nts. Fairly shameful all round.




*Wolmar had recently told the alleged repeated sexual harasser Nick Cohen he wants to stand for Labour in Islington North

El Pollo Diablo wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 13, 2023 4:49 pm

Christian Wolmar, posted a vile reply on twitter*.

He's now claiming he somehow didn't realise it was about a murdered teen despite it literally being mentioned in the short tweet he was responding to. Disingenuous c.nt.

My trans friends aren't having a fun day today. So if you know any trans people, maybe send some love their way.

My Daughter is Trans.

I don't think the murder about being trans per se, but about being different. Remember the Goth girl Sophie Lancaster, kicked to death for being a Goth and dressing different. Golding had it right in Lord of the Flies, given a lack of firm boundaries teenagers can be horrible. What the excuse is for adult transphobia is, I have no idea.

Same thing as was the excuse for sexism and racism and homophobia - prejudice, fear, othering, and a press which is more than happy to pander to all of that. Within much of the Gen X/boomer-age "sceptical" community, also a reliance on biology as a supposedly scientific basis for discrimination.

El Pollo Diablo wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 14, 2023 8:44 am

Same thing as was the excuse for sexism and racism and homophobia - prejudice, fear, othering, and a press which is more than happy to pander to all of that. Within much of the Gen X/boomer-age "sceptical" community, also a reliance on biology as a supposedly scientific basis for discrimination.

It's not even a reliance on biology, it's reliance on an oversimplified version of biology. As with so many things, sex and gender are abmctt, yet somehow we get people who really should know better confidently announcing that men are XY and women are XX and that's all there is to it. And even if that were true, so what? Trans people exist. You can't logic them out of existence, and why would you even want to?

@Fishnut that does sound uncomfortably close to home. My son is dating a trans woman, which has made me a bit more aware of both direct violence and other issues.

One oddity of this was finding myself agreeing with Tom Harwood on something. Tom Harwood substack on Gender Recognition

Fishnut wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 14, 2023 9:24 am

El Pollo Diablo wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 14, 2023 8:44 am

Same thing as was the excuse for sexism and racism and homophobia - prejudice, fear, othering, and a press which is more than happy to pander to all of that. Within much of the Gen X/boomer-age "sceptical" community, also a reliance on biology as a supposedly scientific basis for discrimination.

It's not even a reliance on biology, it's reliance on an oversimplified version of biology. As with so many things, sex and gender are abmctt, yet somehow we get people who really should know better confidently announcing that men are XY and women are XX and that's all there is to it. And even if that were true, so what? Trans people exist. You can't logic them out of existence, and why would you even want to?

Sadly, the main reason for othering, assuming that means stigmatising, denigrating, outlawing, etc, people for being different from some dominant social norm, is to preserve the status and power of those who have status and power in society. It is a consistent technique of all authoritarian regimes to define out-groups to stigmatise, etc, be they identifiable minorities, or new minorities specifically designed for the purpose such as kulaks, capitalist roaders, enemies of the people, and remoaners. It is also a consistent technique of all people who value their status in a particular society, who thus may seek to preserve their status by preserving the exclusive norms that accord them that status.

And - unfortunately - societal status has been shown to be a strong driver of people saying they are satisfied and happy in their life, so this is actually an instinctive tendency we have to fight against. Which is why these seems to go on even more strongly in teenage societies, nearer to their instinctive tendencies.

Today we know the value and strength of diversity in society, and so may try to fight against these unfortunate instincts. And it is a never-ending battle because the power- and status-hungry know well the value they can derive from defining out-groups to hate.

The Police have confirmed that they are investigating the possibility that Brianna Ghey's killing was a hate crime - clicky

Their statement before said something like "there is no evidence that this was a hate crime" which transphobes used to claim that she wasn't killed for being trans, in an attempt to silence the valid concerns of trans people.

Grumble wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 15, 2023 9:23 am

The argument (term used loosely) seems to be that trans women are men and therefore should not be allowed into women only spaces. Anyone saying different is labelled a misogynist.

There has been a confused reaction from some trans supporters to this particular case. Some were angered that the first round of media reports identified her as a girl, thus erasing her trans identity. Some were angered that the second round of reports identified her as a trans girl, thus denying she was a girl.

It seems pretty obvious to do what everyone on this thread has done, to identify her as a trans girl and demand special protections for trans children and trans adults in vulnerable positions, such as in a school that fails to deal with bullying.

lpm wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:54 am

It needs, however, to be a method of self ID that works in practice, not a policy that breaks the moment it's applied. Needing to going against one's own policy is an obvious sign that one got it wrong, and it's trans people who are hurt the most by such incompetence.

The Scottish law was never applied, because it is not law yet. Policy about where trans prisoners are housed in the estate was not changed by it, because GRCs do not determine that, and never have. If you believe otherwise you are believing lies.


But anyway, 2 teenagers have been charged with murder. The article I read did not mention a hate crime charge, but I'm not sure the police would announce that, because it's an aggravating thing when it comes to sentencing, rather than a separate crime. Is it something the CPS determine? Anyone know better than me?