ID cards and migrant motivations

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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by Grumble » Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:01 pm

Sciolus wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 8:00 pm
This discussion might be slightly less sh.t if people would actually address some specifics …
Voting. We've got by without any meaningful ID requirements so far with negligible problems.
Specifically, we are now required to use ID for voting. I don’t agree with it, but it’s a fact. Given that, we should have free issue ID.
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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by Gfamily » Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:46 pm

Grumble wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:01 pm
Sciolus wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 8:00 pm
This discussion might be slightly less sh.t if people would actually address some specifics …
Voting. We've got by without any meaningful ID requirements so far with negligible problems.
Specifically, we are now required to use ID for voting. I don’t agree with it, but it’s a fact. Given that, we should have free issue ID.
Voter Authority Certificate
https://www.gov.uk/apply-for-photo-id-v ... ertificate
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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by dyqik » Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:57 pm

Sciolus wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 8:00 pm
This discussion might be slightly less sh.t if people would actually address some specifics rather than airy-fairy name-calling. In particular, you need to explain:
(a) what purposes the government should and shouldn't be allowed to demand ID for;
(b) whether those purposes are sufficiently integral to normal life that a general-purpose ID system should be mandatory; and
(c) whether the benefits of a unified ID system outweigh the risks from (for example) data leakage and mosaic attacks.

Some thoughts to start you off:
Driving. A dangerous activity with a large criminal element, and largely opt-in. I've no problem with requiring some form of ID for this.
NHS. It's clearly medically important to have unique medical record.
Claiming benefits. Enough criminality around this that proving your identity might be a proportionate requirement, I dunno.
Passports. The idea that I need to prove my identity, and implicitly ask permission, when I travel from London to Paris is as preposterous as the idea that I would need to do so to travel from London to Edinburgh. Should be abolished. I realise I'm in a very small minority on this.
Voting. We've got by without any meaningful ID requirements so far with negligible problems.
Bank accounts. I can see why we need to force money launderers to use slightly more expensive lawyers and accountants.

So there are clearly some needs for an identity system, but it is not at all clear that a compulsory unified system is necessary or proportionate. There is no reason why my driving licence should be linked, even indirectly, to my bank account. There are clear reasons why my NHS records should be kept separate from any other system.
While we have a system where it is necessary to prove you have the right to live and work in the UK, then you need a way to prove that you have that right that is taken at face value unless proven otherwise. That requires a connection between your physical self and the rights databases, to put the burden of proof on the government to demonstrate that you aren't the person you say you are.

So like passports and visas, where other countries as well as the UK require you to prove your identity in order to cross borders, some kind of ID is needed to allow you to remain and live inside the borders.

Since the right of entry and right to remain are part of the same immigration and citizenship system, and benefits and voting are directly tied to that status, then it makes sense for that to be one system.

That's independent of whether you think that that proof should be required.

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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by noggins » Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:15 pm

WFJ wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 5:29 pm
noggins wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 5:08 pm
WFJ wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:09 pm


You'll have to explain the steps there.
If you cant prove to the government that you have the right to stay here, how will you convince the government to give you the magic card that gives you the right to stay here? They will want the same "evidence" either way.
So you're worried about deportation, not disenfranchisement? Providing ID cards does not give the government a golden opportunity to deport people. Unless you think they will suddenly start placing people on ferries unless they can immediately provide ID on the spot.
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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by WFJ » Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:37 pm

noggins wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:15 pm
WFJ wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 5:29 pm
noggins wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 5:08 pm


If you cant prove to the government that you have the right to stay here, how will you convince the government to give you the magic card that gives you the right to stay here? They will want the same "evidence" either way.
So you're worried about deportation, not disenfranchisement? Providing ID cards does not give the government a golden opportunity to deport people. Unless you think they will suddenly start placing people on ferries unless they can immediately provide ID on the spot.
Yes , thats what i fear, because i care more than yous
Then you're either trolling or you're not a sensible person. I mentioned upthread that ID cards are a strange British national paranoia, but I did not expect to see such a caricatured example here.* If the UK descends to the point where it is summarily deporting people who cannot provide documentation then the existence or absence of identity cards will be irrelevant. There may be plenty of reasons why ID cards may be unnecessary, but this is a really dumb argument for why they might be dangerous.

* I assume you're British. Apologies if you're not.

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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by Grumble » Tue Mar 14, 2023 12:35 am

Gfamily wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:46 pm
Grumble wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:01 pm
Sciolus wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 8:00 pm
This discussion might be slightly less sh.t if people would actually address some specifics …
Voting. We've got by without any meaningful ID requirements so far with negligible problems.
Specifically, we are now required to use ID for voting. I don’t agree with it, but it’s a fact. Given that, we should have free issue ID.
Voter Authority Certificate
https://www.gov.uk/apply-for-photo-id-v ... ertificate
You have to apply for that. If something is required for you to vote you shouldn’t have to apply for it beyond signing the electoral register - which is clearly needed because there is a need to match you to a locality.
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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by dyqik » Tue Mar 14, 2023 12:14 pm

WFJ wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:37 pm
noggins wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:15 pm
WFJ wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 5:29 pm


So you're worried about deportation, not disenfranchisement? Providing ID cards does not give the government a golden opportunity to deport people. Unless you think they will suddenly start placing people on ferries unless they can immediately provide ID on the spot.
Yes , thats what i fear, because i care more than yous
Then you're either trolling or you're not a sensible person. I mentioned upthread that ID cards are a strange British national paranoia, but I did not expect to see such a caricatured example here.* If the UK descends to the point where it is summarily deporting people who cannot provide documentation then the existence or absence of identity cards will be irrelevant.
It wouldn't, because ID cards would be documentation you can provide on the spot (assuming a requirement to carry them).

A requirement to present a card after a period (UK driver's license style) is obviously more likely, although it's worth noting that e.g. the US requires that driver's licenses be carried at all times when driving, and Greencards be carried at all times.

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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by nekomatic » Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:44 am

discovolante wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:19 pm
I'm having trouble parsing your second paragraph, which I'm sure is my fault, but anecdotally it's not that uncommon to not claim asylum precisely because of how risky it is that you'll be sent back by the home office if you do
I suspect you’ve subjected my inadequately well argued rambling to more analysis than it deserved, but I think I was thinking of the 45,000 ish last year who arrived in the UK irregularly, were intercepted (I assume, since we counted them), and as I understand it most of them are likely to have an asylum claim accepted if they make one. If someone is intercepted and doesn’t claim asylum then I assume (again) that they are highly likely to be sent back by the Home Office if possible, so I guess you are thinking of people who aren’t intercepted and have a choice of making a claim with a risk of being returned, or living under the radar because they prefer those odds. I ought to go and read a bit more about what the figures are (estimated to be) in those sort of cases rather than make poorly researched assertions, probably.

Anyway this seems to have turned into an ID card discussion more than a migration discussion, which I’ll construct something on when it’s not past bedtime.
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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by nekomatic » Wed Mar 15, 2023 11:32 pm

IvanV wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:16 pm
For example, my wife hired a car the other day, for collection in Edinburgh, and they want her to turn up with a recent utility bill or bank statement as well as the driving licence. What kind of nonsense is that? The nonsense that happens in a country without a proper ID system.
So anyway my issue with much pro-ID-card discourse is that it seems to rely on argument from incredulity: how can it possibly not be better to have a convenient card for this stuff? (or if you are the government, how can it possibly not help us keep you safe from the bad people?). Given the serious cost of setting up a national ID database and the possible risks to civil liberties, I think it’s fair to ask for an actual costed assessment of what these convenience benefits are worth, set against the outlay and the disbenefits. I’ve never seen one.

The point that comes closest to changing my mind is the way that these unofficial ID proofs like utility bills and bank statements are things that disadvantaged people are less likely to have, and thus these people are discriminated against whereas under a uniform ID system everyone would be equal. I’d give that significant weight in the cost benefit analysis. But equally, while I’m sensitive to accusations of British exceptionalism and ignorance of the rest of Europe, I’d like to see harder evidence that ID laws elsewhere actually aren’t used against vulnerable groups. Is it really all fine everywhere else in Europe, or is it perhaps fine for a sufficient majority of voters for whom well, obviously it’s no problem because we’ve had them for ages, or obviously we need them to fight crime, or well how else would I show who I am when I hire a boat on the lake at the weekend?
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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by IvanV » Thu Mar 16, 2023 8:36 am

nekomatic wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2023 11:32 pm
IvanV wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:16 pm
For example, my wife hired a car the other day, for collection in Edinburgh, and they want her to turn up with a recent utility bill or bank statement as well as the driving licence. What kind of nonsense is that? The nonsense that happens in a country without a proper ID system.
So anyway my issue with much pro-ID-card discourse is that it seems to rely on argument from incredulity: how can it possibly not be better to have a convenient card for this stuff? (or if you are the government, how can it possibly not help us keep you safe from the bad people?). Given the serious cost of setting up a national ID database and the possible risks to civil liberties, I think it’s fair to ask for an actual costed assessment of what these convenience benefits are worth, set against the outlay and the disbenefits. I’ve never seen one.

The point that comes closest to changing my mind is the way that these unofficial ID proofs like utility bills and bank statements are things that disadvantaged people are less likely to have, and thus these people are discriminated against whereas under a uniform ID system everyone would be equal. I’d give that significant weight in the cost benefit analysis. But equally, while I’m sensitive to accusations of British exceptionalism and ignorance of the rest of Europe, I’d like to see harder evidence that ID laws elsewhere actually aren’t used against vulnerable groups. Is it really all fine everywhere else in Europe, or is it perhaps fine for a sufficient majority of voters for whom well, obviously it’s no problem because we’ve had them for ages, or obviously we need them to fight crime, or well how else would I show who I am when I hire a boat on the lake at the weekend?
I think that the risk to civil liberties only occurs in a much more authoritarian and corrupt country than this one. We can easily cite the trouble agents of the state can cause people over ID cards in such places. For example, in apartheid South Africa, the police would steal your ID card and then lock you up for not producing it. But there are substantial risks to civil liberties in a much more authoritarian and corrupt country than this one, with or without them. So I don't find that a large cost that is actually specific to ID cards.

It would be nice to know if in reality there is no trouble over ID cards in reasonable countries like France, Germany, NL, etc. I'm inclined to suspect that precisely because we've never heard about it, it doesn't exist, because we would have heard about it if it did. But I'll remember to ask various other Europeans about it.

Whereas the "point that comes closest to changing [your] mind" is a clear and present benefit.

A cost-benefit analysis is hard. You can look at what these systems cost in other countries. But doubtless we'd find some perverse way to do it - just as Blair did when he embarked on it - that cost an awful lot more, and had some problems no other country had ever experienced before.

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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by Imrael » Thu Mar 16, 2023 8:50 am

IvanV wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 8:36 am

I think that the risk to civil liberties only occurs in a much more authoritarian and corrupt country than this one.
I've been against ID cards because I states tend not to hand powers back and I dont feel we can depend on the country remaining above the risks. (ALways felt that - current government doesnt help but its not a new thing for me)

However, I'm not sure they would be a key part of an imagined future authoritarian state;s arsenal now, with so much information being public in various ways, and I find myself swaying to being in favour.

A small note on other countries - IIRC correctly one consequence of ID cards in France is a police right to stop people and ask to see ID, which does have some intimidatory value. Its been a long time since I spent time there, so not sure not "real" this is.

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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by WFJ » Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:23 am

IvanV wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 8:36 am
It would be nice to know if in reality there is no trouble over ID cards in reasonable countries like France, Germany, NL, etc. I'm inclined to suspect that precisely because we've never heard about it, it doesn't exist, because we would have heard about it if it did. But I'll remember to ask various other Europeans about it.
In 10+ years of living in Germany I can only remember police asking to see my ID once when I crossed the road on red without noticing a policeman standing on the other side of the road. This was before I had a German ID card and I did not have my UK passport with me, which was the only officially recognised ID I had at the time, so showed my then-UK driving licence and he let me off without a fine.

I am fortunate that if no one hears me speak I can pass for a natural-born German whose ancestors have lived here since before Napoleon killed the Holy Roman Empire and I know that some of my less melaninally-challenged friends have been asked more often (and would have been less likely to get away without a fine in the situation above). I don't think this is any different to the situation in the UK though. Although I can't back that up with evidence, not having ID cards does not stop the UK or US police from preferentially hassling darker-skinned people.

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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by bagpuss » Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:30 am

IvanV wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 8:36 am
It would be nice to know if in reality there is no trouble over ID cards in reasonable countries like France, Germany, NL, etc. I'm inclined to suspect that precisely because we've never heard about it, it doesn't exist, because we would have heard about it if it did. But I'll remember to ask various other Europeans about it.
It's only anecdotal but as you said you were going to seek anecdotal evidence anyway...

This is not specifically against id cards per se, but against the requirement, in France, to carry id and produce it on request. As you would expect, police are not free from bias in who they choose to ask for id.

Example 1: My French tutor at university gave us this anecdotal information. She had 2 sons, both of whom lived in France. One, while white (I think) was dark enough in colouring to be mistaken for being 'Maghrebien'. The other was much fairer and clearly white. The latter was hardly ever asked for id, the former was asked for his quite frequently. Now, it may be that they spent time in different places where there was differing risk of being asked for id, but our tutor was bright enough to have thought of that and was pretty sure that the only explanation was their different colouring.

Example 2: A number of my friends and I spent an academic year studying at university in France. Of the 6 of us who went to Nantes (I don't know the detail of the others), 5 of us were never asked for id in the 10 months we were there. The sixth was asked twice. Not a huge amount of difference, perhaps, but one of those two times, she was standing together with a group of some of the others of our 6 and also a couple of local French students. They were just outside a supermarket waiting for a couple of other people to come out from doing their bit of shopping so they could all carry on walking home together. Just one of that group of students standing chatting was approached for her id. I suspect you've figured out where this is going already but that one student was the only one of us who was not white. And in case you're wondering if something else might be the reason it was just her - there was nothing else that would really have distinguished her from the other female students in the group, except that she was possibly even more quiet and non-threatening than the rest of the group.



So, while ID cards in and of themselves might not be a threat to civil liberties, ID cards tend to come along with other things, such as the requirement to produce them on demand, and that is where the abuse can happen.

Obviously, the UK police already use their Stop and Search powers in a far from unbiased manner. You could either argue that introducing ID cards wouldn't therefore make any difference, or you could argue that this would just give them even more opportunity to demonstrate their bias.

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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by dyqik » Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:38 am

nekomatic wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2023 11:32 pm
IvanV wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:16 pm
For example, my wife hired a car the other day, for collection in Edinburgh, and they want her to turn up with a recent utility bill or bank statement as well as the driving licence. What kind of nonsense is that? The nonsense that happens in a country without a proper ID system.
So anyway my issue with much pro-ID-card discourse is that it seems to rely on argument from incredulity: how can it possibly not be better to have a convenient card for this stuff? (or if you are the government, how can it possibly not help us keep you safe from the bad people?). Given the serious cost of setting up a national ID database and the possible risks to civil liberties, I think it’s fair to ask for an actual costed assessment of what these convenience benefits are worth, set against the outlay and the disbenefits. I’ve never seen one.

The point that comes closest to changing my mind is the way that these unofficial ID proofs like utility bills and bank statements are things that disadvantaged people are less likely to have, and thus these people are discriminated against whereas under a uniform ID system everyone would be equal. I’d give that significant weight in the cost benefit analysis. But equally, while I’m sensitive to accusations of British exceptionalism and ignorance of the rest of Europe, I’d like to see harder evidence that ID laws elsewhere actually aren’t used against vulnerable groups. Is it really all fine everywhere else in Europe, or is it perhaps fine for a sufficient majority of voters for whom well, obviously it’s no problem because we’ve had them for ages, or obviously we need them to fight crime, or well how else would I show who I am when I hire a boat on the lake at the weekend?
The UK government has effectively already set up the national ID database, under right to work and right to rent checks, plus right to remain immigration databases. What it hasn't done is given you any way of proving that you have those rights or are a particular entry in that database that is universally distributed and accepted.

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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by nekomatic » Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:55 am

IvanV wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 8:36 am
I think that the risk to civil liberties only occurs in a much more authoritarian and corrupt country than this one. We can easily cite the trouble agents of the state can cause people over ID cards in such places. For example, in apartheid South Africa, the police would steal your ID card and then lock you up for not producing it. But there are substantial risks to civil liberties in a much more authoritarian and corrupt country than this one, with or without them. So I don't find that a large cost that is actually specific to ID cards.
I find the 'but we're not an authoritarian or corrupt country' argument unconvincing, not because I think Britain is barely distinguishable from apartheid South Africa but because I do find some validity in slippery slope arguments in this context. I think if you showed someone from mid-nineties Britain, say, some of the things that have happened in the last few years or are happening now, they would find a qualitative difference in the level of corruption that has been allowed to take place and the disregard of the executive for laws and democratic oversight that is in danger of becoming accepted as routine. Also a quick visit here will remind us that abuse of police powers need not be institutionally sanctioned to be an issue.

I think it's also fair to question how effective ID checks in an ID-card system actually are, or whether they sometimes constitute what we might term 'identity theatre'. For example, if other countries allow you to open a bank account on the strength of your ID card rather than our weird-sounding address-history-and-something-else-with-your-photo-on sort of methods, does that actually protect against money laundering as effectively, or could our distributed and circumstantial system actually be more robust? I don't know, but I feel it would be nice to.

Again, this is all totally dependent on what a given ID system actually involves - a plastic card that says 'person with this name and reference number looks like this photo' is one thing, a database of fingerprints or irises that is used as the reference for accessing all public services and many private ones would be quite another, and the costs and risks of one version shouldn't be mixed up with the benefits of another.
Last edited by nekomatic on Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by nekomatic » Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:56 am

dyqik wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:38 am
The UK government has effectively already set up the national ID database, under right to work and right to rent checks, plus right to remain immigration databases. What it hasn't done is given you any way of proving that you have those rights or are a particular entry in that database that is universally distributed and accepted.
This is a 'half my house is already on fire so I might as well set light to the rest of it' argument.
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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by shpalman » Thu Mar 16, 2023 12:05 pm

nekomatic wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:56 am
dyqik wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:38 am
The UK government has effectively already set up the national ID database, under right to work and right to rent checks, plus right to remain immigration databases. What it hasn't done is given you any way of proving that you have those rights or are a particular entry in that database that is universally distributed and accepted.
This is a 'half my house is already on fire so I might as well set light to the rest of it' argument.
If you have already decided that national ID cards are like burning your house down then it's clear you've made an emotional decision and are not open to rational discussion.
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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by IvanV » Thu Mar 16, 2023 12:19 pm

nekomatic wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:56 am
dyqik wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:38 am
The UK government has effectively already set up the national ID database, under right to work and right to rent checks, plus right to remain immigration databases. What it hasn't done is given you any way of proving that you have those rights or are a particular entry in that database that is universally distributed and accepted.
This is a 'half my house is already on fire so I might as well set light to the rest of it' argument.
To me it looks more like, we set fire to the house, how can we best use the space released? Arguably to have the national ID database but not let the wider population take advantage of it, seems to be a worst-of-all-worlds place we have arrived at.

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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by nekomatic » Thu Mar 16, 2023 12:25 pm

shpalman wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 12:05 pm
If you have already decided that national ID cards are like burning your house down then it's clear you've made an emotional decision and are not open to rational discussion.
My metaphor reflected my views on
right to work and right to rent checks, plus right to remain immigration databases
and if the authors of those didn't want people to have an emotional reaction to them then perhaps they shouldn't have proudly collectively branded them as the 'hostile environment'.
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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by dyqik » Thu Mar 16, 2023 12:40 pm

nekomatic wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:56 am
dyqik wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:38 am
The UK government has effectively already set up the national ID database, under right to work and right to rent checks, plus right to remain immigration databases. What it hasn't done is given you any way of proving that you have those rights or are a particular entry in that database that is universally distributed and accepted.
This is a 'half my house is already on fire so I might as well set light to the rest of it' argument.
No, it's the exact opposite. It's a "half my house is on fire, so I should find the keys to the window locks" argument.

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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by noggins » Thu Mar 16, 2023 1:23 pm

Please explain to me how, if someone is immigrationally disadvantaged, and currently finds it tricky to prove to the state that they have the right to be here, they will however easily persuade the state to give them the ID card that proves they have the right to be here. ID cards dont magic evidence into existence.

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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by nekomatic » Thu Mar 16, 2023 1:23 pm

dyqik wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 12:40 pm
No, it's the exact opposite. It's a "half my house is on fire, so I should find the keys to the window locks" argument.
Leaving the distracting metaphor to one side, I don't believe the hostile environment checks are necessary and proportionate, so my preferred response to them is not to ask for the additional mechanisms to make them work better but to reduce or remove them.
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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by nekomatic » Thu Mar 16, 2023 1:30 pm

noggins wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 1:23 pm
Please explain to me how, if someone is immigrationally disadvantaged, and currently finds it tricky to prove to the state that they have the right to be here, they will however easily persuade the state to give them the ID card that proves they have the right to be here. ID cards dont magic evidence into existence.
No, I think the argument is that if we had had a national identity database at some previous date, that immigration status and other entitlements could both have been linked to, then some problems people have had since that previous date could have been avoided.

The obvious counter to that is that governments with a majority and a purported mandate are perfectly capable of changing people's rights to things, in breach of promises they've made - as EU nationals in the UK can attest - and that wouldn't be affected by whether or not there was a database.
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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by dyqik » Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:38 pm

nekomatic wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 1:23 pm
dyqik wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 12:40 pm
No, it's the exact opposite. It's a "half my house is on fire, so I should find the keys to the window locks" argument.
Leaving the distracting metaphor to one side, I don't believe the hostile environment checks are necessary and proportionate, so my preferred response to them is not to ask for the additional mechanisms to make them work better but to reduce or remove them.
If any kind of immigration, benefits, employment checks etc. are mandated, even nowhere near the hostile environment levels, the most liberal option is for there to be an approved method of proving identity, rather than the adhoc and exclusionary system we have now.

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Sciolus
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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by Sciolus » Thu Mar 16, 2023 8:07 pm

bagpuss wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:30 am
This is not specifically against id cards per se, but against the requirement, in France, to carry id and produce it on request.
Now, this is the sort of thing that gives ID cards a bad name. Not just the obvious invitation to racist abuse documented by Bagpuss. But, what earthly benefit, what rational justification, is there for requiring people to identify themselves arbitrarily to the authorities? How does it help, what purpose does it serve? It doesn't prevent crime or help capture criminals. Why?

(Yes, I'm aware that the same applies in the UK (England?) if you are driving a motor vehicle.)

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