ID cards and migrant motivations

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Woodchopper
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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by Woodchopper » Mon Mar 13, 2023 3:00 pm

IvanV wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 1:23 pm
Woodchopper wrote:
Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:03 pm
On the population registers it does seem that this is an issue where there does seem to be a profound difference in political culture between the UK and US on one hand and most of Europe on the other.

Population registers are run centrally or at the municipal level in the great majority of EEA states and in my experience they are not controversial. Certainly they could be misused or hacked, but then there are also benefits. I remember during the Brexit debates having to explain to incredulous Europeans and that the UK didn't know how many people were lawfully resident, and it had to organize a Roman style census every decade to find out.
This is why I don't believe the civil liberties argument against ID cards, and that people making such arguments must have another real reason. It is an obvious and straightforward observation that lots of countries with good civil liberties have ID cards. Clearly ID cards can be abused, as they are in various less good countries, but this is not an argument against having them unless you believe we are such a less good country. In fact there is even a concept of ID discrimination in such countries - you disenfranchise sub-populations by making it difficult for them to get the ID cards they need to have normal function in the country.

The Blair ID card project was being sold on various ideas that standard ID cards didn't provide, and which made it difficult and expensive to implement. It wasn't a standard good EU country ID card project. It isn't an argument against a standard ID card project.

Thanks for splitting the thread BTW
I think that the problem isn't insincerity but a general British lack of interest in anything that is happening in the rest of Europe, which is compensated for by an overriding interest in the United States. Even the most ardent remainers seem to be remarkably uninterested in what actually happens in the EU. Its tempting to blame language competence, but there are lots of English language sources available anyway. Despite living next door and using the same language, people know enormously more about politics in the US than they do about Ireland.

So someone sees a suggestion about Britain on ID cards or a population register, then reads opinions form the US, and concludes that its one step toward fascism that couldn't be taken by any liberal or progressive nation.

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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by shpalman » Mon Mar 13, 2023 3:20 pm

noggins wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:34 pm
IvanV wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 1:23 pm
This is why I don't believe the civil liberties argument against ID cards, and that people making such arguments must have another real reason. It is an obvious and straightforward observation that lots of countries with good civil liberties have ID cards. Clearly ID cards can be abused, as they are in various less good countries, but this is not an argument against having them unless you believe we are such a less good country. In fact there is even a concept of ID discrimination in such countries - you disenfranchise sub-populations by making it difficult for them to get the ID cards they need to have normal function in the country.

The Blair ID card project was being sold on various ideas that standard ID cards didn't provide, and which made it difficult and expensive to implement. It wasn't a standard good EU country ID card project. It isn't an argument against a standard ID card project.

Thanks for splitting the thread BTW

Well, I believe that, given the (pleasantly) socially liberal, educated, littlebitlefty tilt of this board, that anyone here in favour of "Id cards" is either indulging their inner trainspotter, or just being a contrarian tit.

There are arguments in favour of a trying to make a "better" UK National Identity Register: make them if you like, but "Id cards" is just arse gas.
I have both an Italian ID card and the special (optional) biometric* permit-of-stay set up for UK citizens who were resident here before Brexit which attests to the rights specified within the withdrawal agreement, and no problem with this.

The permit-of-stay is optional because we have those rights anyway, but I've heard of people being asked for it.

I still have the old paper ID card but when it expires I'll renew with the new biometric one.

Italy has an "anagrafe" - your existence and residency is known to your local council. But the permit-of-stay (and the passport) for that matter are dealt with at the questura i.e. the police while the ID card is dealt with by the council, and the things aren't really linked in that you yourself have to take your permit of stay to the council to register your residence, and the permit-of-stay which demonstrates residence doesn't have your actual residence address.

(Back when the UK was in the EU you only had to tell the questura if you were planning to stay more than three months; I did it after three years and they didn't care. Now you'd have to do it in 8 days and maybe they'd care a bit more.)

* - there's an electronic fingerprint reader at the questura.
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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by noggins » Mon Mar 13, 2023 3:43 pm

"Europe has them" is a piss poor argument.

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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by shpalman » Mon Mar 13, 2023 3:47 pm

"either indulging their inner trainspotter, or just being a contrarian tit" isn't a great argument against them.
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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by noggins » Mon Mar 13, 2023 3:52 pm

Well I've not seen a rational justification for them here yet.

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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by Grumble » Mon Mar 13, 2023 3:54 pm

noggins wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 3:52 pm
Well I've not seen a rational justification for them here yet.
If we have to have ID for voting then that ID should be provided foc by the government. Before ID was required for voting I wasn’t bothered.
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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by WFJ » Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:04 pm

noggins wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 3:52 pm
Well I've not seen a rational justification for them here yet.
Preventing the disenfranchisement of many UK citizens that the UK government is currently undertaking would be one reasonable justification.

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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by noggins » Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:07 pm

Or giving the government a golden opportunity to disenfranchise.

Id much rather the next government abolishes voter id.

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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by WFJ » Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:09 pm

noggins wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:07 pm
Or giving the government a golden opportunity to disenfranchise.
You'll have to explain the steps there.

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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by IvanV » Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:16 pm

noggins wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 3:43 pm
"Europe has them" is a piss poor argument.
...
[earlier]There are arguments in favour of a trying to make a "better" UK National Identity Register: make them if you like, but "Id cards" is just arse gas.
It is a perfect refutation of the argument "ID cards are bad civil liberties", which is the reason I mentioned it. It is not advocacy for them, nor did I claim it was.

So, suppose we have a "better" UK National Identity Register, which you think might be a good idea. For example, in a typical country, everyone would have a unique birth number, which enables that. Here, (eventually) I get an NI number, probably an NHS number, some of us get a driving licence, some of us get a passport, and still they demand multiple documents from you to demonstrate your identity.

But an ID register is no use unless you can demonstrate that you are on it. If you don't have that ID card, what do you have, that makes that ID register work?

For example, my wife hired a car the other day, for collection in Edinburgh, and they want her to turn up with a recent utility bill or bank statement as well as the driving licence. What kind of nonsense is that? The nonsense that happens in a country without a proper ID system. So suppose instead we have a proper ID system, with the "better" register. What would my wife use to demonstrate her ID to the car hirer? I doubt arse gas would do it.

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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by IvanV » Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:19 pm

noggins wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:07 pm
Or giving the government a golden opportunity to disenfranchise.

Id much rather the next government abolishes voter id.
In most EU countries, you turn up to vote with your ID card. It isn't voter suppression because everyone has one. No one complains about it.

Inventing a voter ID card, which is only for the purpose of voting, only required by people who haven't got another adequate photo-ID, is voter suppression.

That's another reason a uniform ID card system is a good idea.

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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by Opti » Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:21 pm

Living in Spain there are a couple of biometric cards that I must have (Tarjeta de Identidad de Extranjero), foreigner residence permit, and Driving licence. I also have a Sanitario card (health service) and an NIE (tax office number).
By law I should carry my passport at all times as none of the cards are officially recognised as valid ID, but you have to come across a really officious officer for the TIE not to be accepted.
Things are fine for me. They have my picture, fingerprints - everything - but my life is dead easy and I can access all sorts of government sites with my ID. Everyone here, nationals included, have to have ID on them at all times.
It's normal, nobody seems to have a problem with it.
Time for a big fat one.

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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by jimbob » Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:29 pm

Grumble wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 3:54 pm
noggins wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 3:52 pm
Well I've not seen a rational justification for them here yet.
If we have to have ID for voting then that ID should be provided foc by the government. Before ID was required for voting I wasn’t bothered.
This
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by dyqik » Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:29 pm

noggins wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:34 pm
Well, I believe that, given the (pleasantly) socially liberal, educated, littlebitlefty tilt of this board, that anyone here in favour of "Id cards" is either indulging their inner trainspotter, or just being a contrarian tit.

There are arguments in favour of a trying to make a "better" UK National Identity Register: make them if you like, but "Id cards" is just arse gas.
You are wrong.

It's much easier to oppress minorities in the absence of a robust national ID scheme. As Windrush, etc. shows

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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by dyqik » Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:31 pm

IvanV wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:16 pm
noggins wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 3:43 pm
"Europe has them" is a piss poor argument.
...
[earlier]There are arguments in favour of a trying to make a "better" UK National Identity Register: make them if you like, but "Id cards" is just arse gas.
It is a perfect refutation of the argument "ID cards are bad civil liberties", which is the reason I mentioned it. It is not advocacy for them, nor did I claim it was.

So, suppose we have a "better" UK National Identity Register, which you think might be a good idea. For example, in a typical country, everyone would have a unique birth number, which enables that. Here, (eventually) I get an NI number, probably an NHS number, some of us get a driving licence, some of us get a passport, and still they demand multiple documents from you to demonstrate your identity.

But an ID register is no use unless you can demonstrate that you are on it. If you don't have that ID card, what do you have, that makes that ID register work?

For example, my wife hired a car the other day, for collection in Edinburgh, and they want her to turn up with a recent utility bill or bank statement as well as the driving licence. What kind of nonsense is that? The nonsense that happens in a country without a proper ID system. So suppose instead we have a proper ID system, with the "better" register. What would my wife use to demonstrate her ID to the car hirer? I doubt arse gas would do it.
In the US, the Social Security number acts as birth number, across many forms of ID - it's linked to driving licenses, health insurance, employment, passports, tax payments, credit scores, etc.

A Social Security number card has even less information than a National Insurance card in the UK though - no magnetic stripe, as it's just a piece of paper. A Real ID Driving License or State ID is the defacto ID card, for boarding aircraft, entering Federal buildings, etc.
Last edited by dyqik on Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by jimbob » Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:34 pm

dyqik wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:31 pm
IvanV wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:16 pm
noggins wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 3:43 pm
"Europe has them" is a piss poor argument.
...
[earlier]There are arguments in favour of a trying to make a "better" UK National Identity Register: make them if you like, but "Id cards" is just arse gas.
It is a perfect refutation of the argument "ID cards are bad civil liberties", which is the reason I mentioned it. It is not advocacy for them, nor did I claim it was.

So, suppose we have a "better" UK National Identity Register, which you think might be a good idea. For example, in a typical country, everyone would have a unique birth number, which enables that. Here, (eventually) I get an NI number, probably an NHS number, some of us get a driving licence, some of us get a passport, and still they demand multiple documents from you to demonstrate your identity.

But an ID register is no use unless you can demonstrate that you are on it. If you don't have that ID card, what do you have, that makes that ID register work?

For example, my wife hired a car the other day, for collection in Edinburgh, and they want her to turn up with a recent utility bill or bank statement as well as the driving licence. What kind of nonsense is that? The nonsense that happens in a country without a proper ID system. So suppose instead we have a proper ID system, with the "better" register. What would my wife use to demonstrate her ID to the car hirer? I doubt arse gas would do it.
In the US, the Social Security number acts as birth number, across many forms of ID - it's linked to driving licenses, health insurance, employment, passports, tax payments, credit scores, etc.
And in the UK, the NHS number came out of the ID cards that were issued during WWII
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by shpalman » Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:35 pm

Opti wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:21 pm
... I can access all sorts of government sites with my ID.
I forgot to mention that the electronic ID card which everyone in Italy now gets can also be used to log in to government websites, if you have a card reader (or via the NFC in the phone).

Since I don't have the CIE yet, I use my "secure personal digital identity" (SPID), which Italy also made obligatory. There are various providers for that, including the post office. It's basically an outsourced two-factor authentication scheme tied to a real person.
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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by IvanV » Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:49 pm

jimbob wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:34 pm
dyqik wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:31 pm
In the US, the Social Security number acts as birth number, across many forms of ID - it's linked to driving licenses, health insurance, employment, passports, tax payments, credit scores, etc.
And in the UK, the NHS number came out of the ID cards that were issued during WWII
That's very interesting. But no one other than the NHS ever asks you for your NHS number. So although we have a unique number for everyone, we don't make any use of it.

The problem is your NHS number is just a number printed on an easily faked piece of light cardboard. Or you show someone else's. (And those of us who had old-style NHS numbers were all given new ones a little while ago.)

Clearly an ID card system needs to be a bit better than a piece of cardboard with a number printed on it. A few years ago UK passport controls used have notices up about Italian ID cards, which I think were (then) rather too easy to fake.

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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by Opti » Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:59 pm

There are still quite a lot of Brits in Spain that still have the old-style cardboard residencia cards which, while still a legal document, aren't accepted by banks, certain border officials etc..
They just refuse to get the new TIE because photo and fingerprints. They're just making their lives more difficult on the principle that they don't want 'them' to have any more information on them. Their loss.
Time for a big fat one.

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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by noggins » Mon Mar 13, 2023 5:08 pm

WFJ wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:09 pm
noggins wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:07 pm
Or giving the government a golden opportunity to disenfranchise.
You'll have to explain the steps there.
If you cant prove to the government that you have the right to stay here, how will you convince the government to give you the magic card that gives you the right to stay here? They will want the same "evidence" either way.

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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by noggins » Mon Mar 13, 2023 5:09 pm

dyqik wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:29 pm
noggins wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:34 pm
Well, I believe that, given the (pleasantly) socially liberal, educated, littlebitlefty tilt of this board, that anyone here in favour of "Id cards" is either indulging their inner trainspotter, or just being a contrarian tit.

There are arguments in favour of a trying to make a "better" UK National Identity Register: make them if you like, but "Id cards" is just arse gas.
You are wrong.

It's much easier to oppress minorities in the absence of a robust national ID scheme. As Windrush, etc. shows
Yeah right, the racist government will hand out a magic card which will stop it being racist to you.

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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by noggins » Mon Mar 13, 2023 5:14 pm

FFS the card is theatre. What makes i t useful is the database behind it that has your details and your ugly mug.

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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by WFJ » Mon Mar 13, 2023 5:29 pm

noggins wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 5:08 pm
WFJ wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:09 pm
noggins wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:07 pm
Or giving the government a golden opportunity to disenfranchise.
You'll have to explain the steps there.
If you cant prove to the government that you have the right to stay here, how will you convince the government to give you the magic card that gives you the right to stay here? They will want the same "evidence" either way.
So you're worried about deportation, not disenfranchisement? Providing ID cards does not give the government a golden opportunity to deport people. Unless you think they will suddenly start placing people on ferries unless they can immediately provide ID on the spot.

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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by dyqik » Mon Mar 13, 2023 5:35 pm

noggins wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 5:09 pm
dyqik wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:29 pm
noggins wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:34 pm
Well, I believe that, given the (pleasantly) socially liberal, educated, littlebitlefty tilt of this board, that anyone here in favour of "Id cards" is either indulging their inner trainspotter, or just being a contrarian tit.

There are arguments in favour of a trying to make a "better" UK National Identity Register: make them if you like, but "Id cards" is just arse gas.
You are wrong.

It's much easier to oppress minorities in the absence of a robust national ID scheme. As Windrush, etc. shows
Yeah right, the racist government will hand out a magic card which will stop it being racist to you.
The magic card with ID number and photo is what allows you to connect yourself to the person recorded in the database as having the right to live and work and vote in the UK, and not someone who the government can deport or arrest for voting illegally. It's the de facto proof of your identity, which is required to be accepted by the courts, and which places the burden of proving the falsehood of the card on the government.

It doesn't stop the legislature passing racists laws, but it does help force the executive government to follow the existing law.

It seems to me that you're very unaware and naive about all the ways that a government can be racist.

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Re: ID cards and migrant motivations

Post by Sciolus » Mon Mar 13, 2023 8:00 pm

This discussion might be slightly less sh.t if people would actually address some specifics rather than airy-fairy name-calling. In particular, you need to explain:
(a) what purposes the government should and shouldn't be allowed to demand ID for;
(b) whether those purposes are sufficiently integral to normal life that a general-purpose ID system should be mandatory; and
(c) whether the benefits of a unified ID system outweigh the risks from (for example) data leakage and mosaic attacks.

Some thoughts to start you off:
Driving. A dangerous activity with a large criminal element, and largely opt-in. I've no problem with requiring some form of ID for this.
NHS. It's clearly medically important to have unique medical record.
Claiming benefits. Enough criminality around this that proving your identity might be a proportionate requirement, I dunno.
Passports. The idea that I need to prove my identity, and implicitly ask permission, when I travel from London to Paris is as preposterous as the idea that I would need to do so to travel from London to Edinburgh. Should be abolished. I realise I'm in a very small minority on this.
Voting. We've got by without any meaningful ID requirements so far with negligible problems.
Bank accounts. I can see why we need to force money launderers to use slightly more expensive lawyers and accountants.

So there are clearly some needs for an identity system, but it is not at all clear that a compulsory unified system is necessary or proportionate. There is no reason why my driving licence should be linked, even indirectly, to my bank account. There are clear reasons why my NHS records should be kept separate from any other system.

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