Re: ID cards and migrant motivations
Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:01 pm
Specifically, we are now required to use ID for voting. I don’t agree with it, but it’s a fact. Given that, we should have free issue ID.
Specifically, we are now required to use ID for voting. I don’t agree with it, but it’s a fact. Given that, we should have free issue ID.
Voter Authority Certificate
While we have a system where it is necessary to prove you have the right to live and work in the UK, then you need a way to prove that you have that right that is taken at face value unless proven otherwise. That requires a connection between your physical self and the rights databases, to put the burden of proof on the government to demonstrate that you aren't the person you say you are.Sciolus wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 8:00 pmThis discussion might be slightly less sh.t if people would actually address some specifics rather than airy-fairy name-calling. In particular, you need to explain:
(a) what purposes the government should and shouldn't be allowed to demand ID for;
(b) whether those purposes are sufficiently integral to normal life that a general-purpose ID system should be mandatory; and
(c) whether the benefits of a unified ID system outweigh the risks from (for example) data leakage and mosaic attacks.
Some thoughts to start you off:
Driving. A dangerous activity with a large criminal element, and largely opt-in. I've no problem with requiring some form of ID for this.
NHS. It's clearly medically important to have unique medical record.
Claiming benefits. Enough criminality around this that proving your identity might be a proportionate requirement, I dunno.
Passports. The idea that I need to prove my identity, and implicitly ask permission, when I travel from London to Paris is as preposterous as the idea that I would need to do so to travel from London to Edinburgh. Should be abolished. I realise I'm in a very small minority on this.
Voting. We've got by without any meaningful ID requirements so far with negligible problems.
Bank accounts. I can see why we need to force money launderers to use slightly more expensive lawyers and accountants.
So there are clearly some needs for an identity system, but it is not at all clear that a compulsory unified system is necessary or proportionate. There is no reason why my driving licence should be linked, even indirectly, to my bank account. There are clear reasons why my NHS records should be kept separate from any other system.
Yes , thats what i fear, because i care more than yousWFJ wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 5:29 pmSo you're worried about deportation, not disenfranchisement? Providing ID cards does not give the government a golden opportunity to deport people. Unless you think they will suddenly start placing people on ferries unless they can immediately provide ID on the spot.
Then you're either trolling or you're not a sensible person. I mentioned upthread that ID cards are a strange British national paranoia, but I did not expect to see such a caricatured example here.* If the UK descends to the point where it is summarily deporting people who cannot provide documentation then the existence or absence of identity cards will be irrelevant. There may be plenty of reasons why ID cards may be unnecessary, but this is a really dumb argument for why they might be dangerous.noggins wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:15 pmYes , thats what i fear, because i care more than yousWFJ wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 5:29 pmSo you're worried about deportation, not disenfranchisement? Providing ID cards does not give the government a golden opportunity to deport people. Unless you think they will suddenly start placing people on ferries unless they can immediately provide ID on the spot.
You have to apply for that. If something is required for you to vote you shouldn’t have to apply for it beyond signing the electoral register - which is clearly needed because there is a need to match you to a locality.Gfamily wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:46 pmVoter Authority Certificate
https://www.gov.uk/apply-for-photo-id-v ... ertificate
It wouldn't, because ID cards would be documentation you can provide on the spot (assuming a requirement to carry them).WFJ wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:37 pmThen you're either trolling or you're not a sensible person. I mentioned upthread that ID cards are a strange British national paranoia, but I did not expect to see such a caricatured example here.* If the UK descends to the point where it is summarily deporting people who cannot provide documentation then the existence or absence of identity cards will be irrelevant.noggins wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:15 pmYes , thats what i fear, because i care more than yousWFJ wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 5:29 pm
So you're worried about deportation, not disenfranchisement? Providing ID cards does not give the government a golden opportunity to deport people. Unless you think they will suddenly start placing people on ferries unless they can immediately provide ID on the spot.
I suspect you’ve subjected my inadequately well argued rambling to more analysis than it deserved, but I think I was thinking of the 45,000 ish last year who arrived in the UK irregularly, were intercepted (I assume, since we counted them), and as I understand it most of them are likely to have an asylum claim accepted if they make one. If someone is intercepted and doesn’t claim asylum then I assume (again) that they are highly likely to be sent back by the Home Office if possible, so I guess you are thinking of people who aren’t intercepted and have a choice of making a claim with a risk of being returned, or living under the radar because they prefer those odds. I ought to go and read a bit more about what the figures are (estimated to be) in those sort of cases rather than make poorly researched assertions, probably.discovolante wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:19 pmI'm having trouble parsing your second paragraph, which I'm sure is my fault, but anecdotally it's not that uncommon to not claim asylum precisely because of how risky it is that you'll be sent back by the home office if you do
So anyway my issue with much pro-ID-card discourse is that it seems to rely on argument from incredulity: how can it possibly not be better to have a convenient card for this stuff? (or if you are the government, how can it possibly not help us keep you safe from the bad people?). Given the serious cost of setting up a national ID database and the possible risks to civil liberties, I think it’s fair to ask for an actual costed assessment of what these convenience benefits are worth, set against the outlay and the disbenefits. I’ve never seen one.IvanV wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:16 pmFor example, my wife hired a car the other day, for collection in Edinburgh, and they want her to turn up with a recent utility bill or bank statement as well as the driving licence. What kind of nonsense is that? The nonsense that happens in a country without a proper ID system.
I think that the risk to civil liberties only occurs in a much more authoritarian and corrupt country than this one. We can easily cite the trouble agents of the state can cause people over ID cards in such places. For example, in apartheid South Africa, the police would steal your ID card and then lock you up for not producing it. But there are substantial risks to civil liberties in a much more authoritarian and corrupt country than this one, with or without them. So I don't find that a large cost that is actually specific to ID cards.nekomatic wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 11:32 pmSo anyway my issue with much pro-ID-card discourse is that it seems to rely on argument from incredulity: how can it possibly not be better to have a convenient card for this stuff? (or if you are the government, how can it possibly not help us keep you safe from the bad people?). Given the serious cost of setting up a national ID database and the possible risks to civil liberties, I think it’s fair to ask for an actual costed assessment of what these convenience benefits are worth, set against the outlay and the disbenefits. I’ve never seen one.IvanV wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:16 pmFor example, my wife hired a car the other day, for collection in Edinburgh, and they want her to turn up with a recent utility bill or bank statement as well as the driving licence. What kind of nonsense is that? The nonsense that happens in a country without a proper ID system.
The point that comes closest to changing my mind is the way that these unofficial ID proofs like utility bills and bank statements are things that disadvantaged people are less likely to have, and thus these people are discriminated against whereas under a uniform ID system everyone would be equal. I’d give that significant weight in the cost benefit analysis. But equally, while I’m sensitive to accusations of British exceptionalism and ignorance of the rest of Europe, I’d like to see harder evidence that ID laws elsewhere actually aren’t used against vulnerable groups. Is it really all fine everywhere else in Europe, or is it perhaps fine for a sufficient majority of voters for whom well, obviously it’s no problem because we’ve had them for ages, or obviously we need them to fight crime, or well how else would I show who I am when I hire a boat on the lake at the weekend?
I've been against ID cards because I states tend not to hand powers back and I dont feel we can depend on the country remaining above the risks. (ALways felt that - current government doesnt help but its not a new thing for me)
In 10+ years of living in Germany I can only remember police asking to see my ID once when I crossed the road on red without noticing a policeman standing on the other side of the road. This was before I had a German ID card and I did not have my UK passport with me, which was the only officially recognised ID I had at the time, so showed my then-UK driving licence and he let me off without a fine.IvanV wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 8:36 amIt would be nice to know if in reality there is no trouble over ID cards in reasonable countries like France, Germany, NL, etc. I'm inclined to suspect that precisely because we've never heard about it, it doesn't exist, because we would have heard about it if it did. But I'll remember to ask various other Europeans about it.
It's only anecdotal but as you said you were going to seek anecdotal evidence anyway...IvanV wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 8:36 amIt would be nice to know if in reality there is no trouble over ID cards in reasonable countries like France, Germany, NL, etc. I'm inclined to suspect that precisely because we've never heard about it, it doesn't exist, because we would have heard about it if it did. But I'll remember to ask various other Europeans about it.
The UK government has effectively already set up the national ID database, under right to work and right to rent checks, plus right to remain immigration databases. What it hasn't done is given you any way of proving that you have those rights or are a particular entry in that database that is universally distributed and accepted.nekomatic wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 11:32 pmSo anyway my issue with much pro-ID-card discourse is that it seems to rely on argument from incredulity: how can it possibly not be better to have a convenient card for this stuff? (or if you are the government, how can it possibly not help us keep you safe from the bad people?). Given the serious cost of setting up a national ID database and the possible risks to civil liberties, I think it’s fair to ask for an actual costed assessment of what these convenience benefits are worth, set against the outlay and the disbenefits. I’ve never seen one.IvanV wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:16 pmFor example, my wife hired a car the other day, for collection in Edinburgh, and they want her to turn up with a recent utility bill or bank statement as well as the driving licence. What kind of nonsense is that? The nonsense that happens in a country without a proper ID system.
The point that comes closest to changing my mind is the way that these unofficial ID proofs like utility bills and bank statements are things that disadvantaged people are less likely to have, and thus these people are discriminated against whereas under a uniform ID system everyone would be equal. I’d give that significant weight in the cost benefit analysis. But equally, while I’m sensitive to accusations of British exceptionalism and ignorance of the rest of Europe, I’d like to see harder evidence that ID laws elsewhere actually aren’t used against vulnerable groups. Is it really all fine everywhere else in Europe, or is it perhaps fine for a sufficient majority of voters for whom well, obviously it’s no problem because we’ve had them for ages, or obviously we need them to fight crime, or well how else would I show who I am when I hire a boat on the lake at the weekend?
I find the 'but we're not an authoritarian or corrupt country' argument unconvincing, not because I think Britain is barely distinguishable from apartheid South Africa but because I do find some validity in slippery slope arguments in this context. I think if you showed someone from mid-nineties Britain, say, some of the things that have happened in the last few years or are happening now, they would find a qualitative difference in the level of corruption that has been allowed to take place and the disregard of the executive for laws and democratic oversight that is in danger of becoming accepted as routine. Also a quick visit here will remind us that abuse of police powers need not be institutionally sanctioned to be an issue.IvanV wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 8:36 amI think that the risk to civil liberties only occurs in a much more authoritarian and corrupt country than this one. We can easily cite the trouble agents of the state can cause people over ID cards in such places. For example, in apartheid South Africa, the police would steal your ID card and then lock you up for not producing it. But there are substantial risks to civil liberties in a much more authoritarian and corrupt country than this one, with or without them. So I don't find that a large cost that is actually specific to ID cards.
This is a 'half my house is already on fire so I might as well set light to the rest of it' argument.dyqik wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:38 amThe UK government has effectively already set up the national ID database, under right to work and right to rent checks, plus right to remain immigration databases. What it hasn't done is given you any way of proving that you have those rights or are a particular entry in that database that is universally distributed and accepted.
If you have already decided that national ID cards are like burning your house down then it's clear you've made an emotional decision and are not open to rational discussion.nekomatic wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:56 amThis is a 'half my house is already on fire so I might as well set light to the rest of it' argument.dyqik wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:38 amThe UK government has effectively already set up the national ID database, under right to work and right to rent checks, plus right to remain immigration databases. What it hasn't done is given you any way of proving that you have those rights or are a particular entry in that database that is universally distributed and accepted.
To me it looks more like, we set fire to the house, how can we best use the space released? Arguably to have the national ID database but not let the wider population take advantage of it, seems to be a worst-of-all-worlds place we have arrived at.nekomatic wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:56 amThis is a 'half my house is already on fire so I might as well set light to the rest of it' argument.dyqik wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:38 amThe UK government has effectively already set up the national ID database, under right to work and right to rent checks, plus right to remain immigration databases. What it hasn't done is given you any way of proving that you have those rights or are a particular entry in that database that is universally distributed and accepted.
My metaphor reflected my views on
and if the authors of those didn't want people to have an emotional reaction to them then perhaps they shouldn't have proudly collectively branded them as the 'hostile environment'.right to work and right to rent checks, plus right to remain immigration databases
No, it's the exact opposite. It's a "half my house is on fire, so I should find the keys to the window locks" argument.nekomatic wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:56 amThis is a 'half my house is already on fire so I might as well set light to the rest of it' argument.dyqik wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:38 amThe UK government has effectively already set up the national ID database, under right to work and right to rent checks, plus right to remain immigration databases. What it hasn't done is given you any way of proving that you have those rights or are a particular entry in that database that is universally distributed and accepted.
Leaving the distracting metaphor to one side, I don't believe the hostile environment checks are necessary and proportionate, so my preferred response to them is not to ask for the additional mechanisms to make them work better but to reduce or remove them.
No, I think the argument is that if we had had a national identity database at some previous date, that immigration status and other entitlements could both have been linked to, then some problems people have had since that previous date could have been avoided.noggins wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 1:23 pmPlease explain to me how, if someone is immigrationally disadvantaged, and currently finds it tricky to prove to the state that they have the right to be here, they will however easily persuade the state to give them the ID card that proves they have the right to be here. ID cards dont magic evidence into existence.
If any kind of immigration, benefits, employment checks etc. are mandated, even nowhere near the hostile environment levels, the most liberal option is for there to be an approved method of proving identity, rather than the adhoc and exclusionary system we have now.nekomatic wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 1:23 pmLeaving the distracting metaphor to one side, I don't believe the hostile environment checks are necessary and proportionate, so my preferred response to them is not to ask for the additional mechanisms to make them work better but to reduce or remove them.
Now, this is the sort of thing that gives ID cards a bad name. Not just the obvious invitation to racist abuse documented by Bagpuss. But, what earthly benefit, what rational justification, is there for requiring people to identify themselves arbitrarily to the authorities? How does it help, what purpose does it serve? It doesn't prevent crime or help capture criminals. Why?