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Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse
Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 8:06 pm
by Sciolus
noggins wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 12:04 pm
But,, of course Fujitsu could alter accounts. You can't design and run a database without super-duper-admin rights.
The issue is the
governance of the access.
Gotta disagree with this. The only access Fujitsu should have had to the live database was for code updates through an authorised procedure. These should never have changed any data held in the database. Any anomalies in the data should have been fixed through a specific process controlled by accountants, not software developers. Random devs being able to change data in the live system, as actually happened, is absolutely unforgivable.
Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse
Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 8:58 pm
by sTeamTraen
noggins wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 4:34 pm
There is no evidence that Fujitsu's interventions were causing the actual shortfall.
Rather, there were shitloads of bugs, some of which managed to come to the attention of Fujitsu, who then flailed around firefighing them , with no proper control...
....and therefore the POs mantra that Horizon was infallible was complete and utter bollocks.
So basically (if I've understood correctly), if Fujitsu hadn't been fixing lots of problems overnight, the "theft" problem could have appeared to be 10x worse. But they could presumably only fix transactions where they had enough peripheral information to reconstruct what should have happened. Lots would have slipped through the cracks.
And I can easily see how this could be spun from "Yes, there are lots of bugs" to "Yes, there are lots of bugs, but our hard-working techs fix every bad transaction overnight, so anything that is left is fraud".
Sciolus wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 8:06 pm
Gotta disagree with this. The only access Fujitsu should have had to the live database was for code updates through an authorised procedure. These should never have changed any data held in the database. Any anomalies in the data should have been fixed through a specific process controlled by accountants, not software developers. Random devs being able to change data in the live system, as actually happened, is absolutely unforgivable.
Do we know they were devs, as opposed to data centre ops staff?
Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse
Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2024 12:36 pm
by noggins
Sciolus wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 8:06 pm
noggins wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 12:04 pm
But,, of course Fujitsu could alter accounts. You can't design and run a database without super-duper-admin rights.
The issue is the
governance of the access.
Gotta disagree with this. The only access Fujitsu should have had to the live database was for code updates through an authorised procedure. These should never have changed any data held in the database. Any anomalies in the data should have been fixed through a specific process controlled by accountants, not software developers. Random devs being able to change data in the live system, as actually happened, is absolutely unforgivable.
On reflection you are right.
The wider point is that the POs response to questions on the reliability wasn't “bugs and discrepancies are resolved by [insert industry standard processes] “ but “INCONCEIVABLE !!”
Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse
Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2024 4:39 pm
by Stranger Mouse
More fun in Channel 4 tonight.
Thread here but for me the link isn’t working
https://x.com/channel4news/status/17751 ... 80547?s=61
Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse
Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2024 6:29 pm
by jimbob
Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse
Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2024 7:57 pm
by Stranger Mouse
Strange that link started working for me shortly after I posted. I think it was their end
Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse
Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2024 1:48 am
by jimbob
Stranger Mouse wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2024 7:57 pm
Strange that link started working for me shortly after I posted. I think it was their end
B...b...but that would only be plausible if the owner of Twitter had turned into a dumpster fire with dodgy IT support.
Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse
Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2024 9:21 am
by Stranger Mouse
jimbob wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 1:48 am
Stranger Mouse wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2024 7:57 pm
Strange that link started working for me shortly after I posted. I think it was their end
B...b...but that would only be plausible if the owner of Twitter had turned into a dumpster fire with dodgy IT support.
lol. To be fair to Musk, if I remember correctly it came up with page not found on the Channel 4 site. Musk is still a tw.t though.
Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse
Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2024 8:36 pm
by snoozeofreason
Before Horizon was introduced, some sub-postmasters used a system known as Capture. Computer Weekly
reports that Jason Coyne a digital forensic investigator who testified to failings in the Horizon System over 20 years ago has offered to analyse the Capture system, which has also been
implicated in potential wrongful convictions. Campaigners have apparently
obtained floppy disks containing the Capture Software.
Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse
Posted: Fri May 03, 2024 11:57 am
by jimbob
FFS.
https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/post- ... 93.article
Lawyers for the Post Office arranged a secret meeting with a judge to prevent disclosure to defence solicitors in a criminal trial, the Post Office Inquiry heard yesterday. Solicitor Martin Smith and his barrister colleague Simon Clarke met the judge at Birmingham Crown Court in 2013 on the eve of a trial of a sub-postmaster accused of theft.
The prosecuting lawyers applied for public interest immunity on the report, successfully persuading the judge that the defence solicitors should not be made aware of it.
‘Such a [note] may well invite a request for disclosure of the test results,’ Smith had emailed a colleague. ‘There may also be a risk that [Thomas] will suggest the investigation was inadequate or incomplete.’
Um yes?
Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse
Posted: Fri May 03, 2024 1:35 pm
by Tristan
Post office lawyer tries to claim that in 2010 he didn't know how to save a document.
https://x.com/ruddick/status/1786346584122216492
Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse
Posted: Fri May 03, 2024 4:45 pm
by tenchboy
Yeah, I saw that I just wanted so badly to be the chappy asking the questions so as to be able t say, "Mate! Even my mum knows how to save a document" And then go on to ask who saved all the other documents on his computer and also whether he disclosed this failing at his job interview.
Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse
Posted: Sat May 04, 2024 8:28 am
by tenchboy
tenchboy wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2024 4:45 pm
Yeah, I saw that I just wanted so badly to be the chappy asking the questions so as to be able t say, "Mate! Even my mum knows how to save a document" And then go on to ask who saved all the other documents on his computer and also whether he disclosed this failing at his job interview.
Is it worse that he thought people would actually believe that?
Maybe he panicked he knew the game was up and just blurted out any old bollocks to try to save himself.
Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse
Posted: Sat May 04, 2024 9:40 am
by Grumble
With the advent of Microsoft 365 I’m no longer sure if I know how to save a document.
Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse
Posted: Sat May 04, 2024 10:06 am
by snoozeofreason
tenchboy wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2024 8:28 am
tenchboy wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2024 4:45 pm
Yeah, I saw that I just wanted so badly to be the chappy asking the questions so as to be able t say, "Mate! Even my mum knows how to save a document" And then go on to ask who saved all the other documents on his computer and also whether he disclosed this failing at his job interview.
Is it worse that he thought people would actually believe that?
Maybe he panicked he knew the game was up and just blurted out any old bollocks to try to save himself.
The lawyer in question is Jarnail Singh. His
appearance at the enquiry in December last year was equally bizarre. His attempts to distance himself from an email he sent by claiming it was dictated to him (along with the distribution list, which consists of a set of people he claims not to know) is particularly worth reading.
Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse
Posted: Sat May 04, 2024 11:28 am
by jimbob
From ISF
Jack by the hedge wrote:Well, just because the computer shows the lawyer received the email and read the email and printed the email and wrote a response quoting the email, we have to consider it might just be the computer that made a mistake. Computers aren't flawless, you know. [/sarcasm]
https://www.internationalskeptics.com/f ... st14314695
Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse
Posted: Sat May 04, 2024 3:11 pm
by dyqik
Grumble wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2024 9:40 am
With the advent of Microsoft 365 I’m no longer sure if I know how to save a document.
Ctrl+s
Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse
Posted: Sat May 04, 2024 5:35 pm
by jimbob
dyqik wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2024 3:11 pm
Grumble wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2024 9:40 am
With the advent of Microsoft 365 I’m no longer sure if I know how to save a document.
Ctrl+s
I tend to use F12 which gets me to more like the file manager route.
Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse
Posted: Sat May 04, 2024 5:57 pm
by Gfamily
jimbob wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2024 5:35 pm
dyqik wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2024 3:11 pm
Grumble wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2024 9:40 am
With the advent of Microsoft 365 I’m no longer sure if I know how to save a document.
Ctrl+s
I tend to use F12 which gets me to more like the file manager route.
Yes, more useful, particularly since opening an attachment document assigns it to a semi random*, often hidden, temporary system folder, and saving it there is about as useful as having it in a locked filing cabinet
stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard'