jimbob wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 9:24 pm
Sciolus wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 6:59 pm
No doubt the Speaker will be apologising to
Dawn Butler and
Ian Blackford promptly.
Edit: Sorry, I don't know how that "No" got into the previous sentence.
Exactly.
The speaker needs to accept that there is such a thing as objective truth, and when it is clear that an MP is lying, allow that to be stated without sanction.'
It is
not civilised to use forms of words to pretend that all MPs are honourable in those situations when it is beyond reasonable doubt that a specific MP has lied.
But maybe the Speaker has got bogged down in some POMO b.llsh.t?
I don't think preventing people from saying "liar" really restricts people from saying the truth, and may have some benefit in preventing invective.
It is difficult, perhaps impossible in a pure logical sense. to disprove a defence of "I was mistaken, muddled, hallucinated, forgot, had a sudden brainfart, etc." People seem capable of believing some very remarkable untruths in defiance of clear evidence in front of their nose.
So I think it is better to say something along the lines of, "That is clearly not the case, and it is not a deduction a reasonable person could draw from the information available to you." That translates very closely into "You are lying", without triggering any problems of parliamentary language.
Fortunately when a minister is standing before parliament making a formal statement, they do have some duty to be well-informed and verify what they are saying. Hallucinating it shouldn't be a defence. So when Johnson said (fortunately didn't sing) "Somebody told me", and in fact no one did, that is misleading parliament. We can't prove that he didn't dream it, and has mixed up his dream with reality. Which is about the extent of his defence in that case. But in real life, people can easily dream that somebody told them. I'm pretty sure I have been mistaken in that way several times in my life.