Criminalising homeless people in tents

[discovolante]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67321319

I mean, surprise surprise, nothing new to see here, etc. But still. There are decent reasons for having reservations about tents (the flip side to a bit of privacy is that you can't easily see what's going on inside them, potentially dangerous - although you can't see whats happening in people's houses either). But even if sleeping in a tent is a 'lifestyle choice', how does it even get to that point?

But anyway, it is a lie to say that in England and Wales there are options for people who don't want to sleep rough. At least, it will be until the priority need and intentionally homelessness tests are scrapped - alongside investment in ensuring that suitable accommodation is actually available for people to live in. But even putting aside the issue of resources, the legislation specifically provides to prevent some people from accessing accommodation. There is a temporary 'relief duty' (details here: https://england.shelter.org.uk/professi ... melessness) which mitigates this slightly but it doesn't provide any guarantee of accommodation.

[Sciolus]

"What I want to stop, and what the law-abiding majority wants us to stop, is those who cause nuisance and distress to other people by pitching tents in public spaces, aggressively begging, stealing, taking drugs, littering and blighting our communities."

At last, a government which is prepared to legislate to make these things illegal.

Sorry, what's that? Already illegal? Oh.

[bjn]

"What I want to stop, and what the law-abiding majority wants us to stop, is those who cause nuisance and distress to other people by pitching tents in public spaces, aggressively begging, stealing, taking drugs, littering and blighting our communities."

At last, a government which is prepared to legislate to make these things illegal.

Sorry, what's that? Already illegal? Oh.

But obviously if your are homeless you do all of those things and so are a criminal and deserve no sympathy.

[discovolante]

"What I want to stop, and what the law-abiding majority wants us to stop, is those who cause nuisance and distress to other people by pitching tents in public spaces, aggressively begging, stealing, taking drugs, littering and blighting our communities."

At last, a government which is prepared to legislate to make these things illegal.

Sorry, what's that? Already illegal? Oh.

It's actually quite boring isn't it, aside from its cruelty. But I suppose tents are easier to spot and so easier to prosecute, which is erm. Something.

[philbo]

"What I want to stop, and what the law-abiding majority wants us to stop, is those who cause nuisance and distress to other people by pitching tents in public spaces, aggressively begging, stealing, taking drugs, littering and blighting our communities."

At last, a government which is prepared to legislate to make these things illegal.

Sorry, what's that? Already illegal? Oh.

It's actually quite boring isn't it, aside from its cruelty. But I suppose tents are easier to spot and so easier to prosecute, which is erm. Something.

Intent to commit crime, perhaps?

[headshot]

At last, a government which is prepared to legislate to make these things illegal.

Sorry, what's that? Already illegal? Oh.

It's actually quite boring isn't it, aside from its cruelty. But I suppose tents are easier to spot and so easier to prosecute, which is erm. Something.

Intent to commit crime, perhaps?

Is yours the brown trench, or grey duffel?

[Grumble]

Quite a lot of rough sleepers are ex-services.

[Sciolus]

It's just distraction theatre,though, isn't it? It isn't intended to change anything in reality, and on the off-chance that these "proposed new laws" actually happen, the possibility that anything would change is irrelevant. The only purpose of this is to get a few favourable headlines in the usual media, and harden support among what she considers her core voters. The numerous adverse effects are of no interest because they don't affect her -- except, hopefully, increasing the view that Tories are the Nasty Party among the not-total-c.nts majority.

[bjn]

It’s Braverman positioning herself as the next Tory leader by appealing to the worst instincts of the Daily Mail loving sections of the Tory membership. From what I can tell, that seems to be the majority of the members. She’s trying to replicate the same path for the Tories as the MAGAs have done with the Republicans. Given that they are already quite a long way down that road already, I don’t think she, and other opportunists in the party, will have problems taking the Tories further.

[discovolante]

It's just distraction theatre,though, isn't it? It isn't intended to change anything in reality, and on the off-chance that these "proposed new laws" actually happen, the possibility that anything would change is irrelevant. The only purpose of this is to get a few favourable headlines in the usual media, and harden support among what she considers her core voters. The numerous adverse effects are of no interest because they don't affect her -- except, hopefully, increasing the view that Tories are the Nasty Party among the not-total-c.nts majority.

Given that tents are very easy to identify, it could lead to more police harassment of street homeless people.

[jimbob]

It’s Braverman positioning herself as the next Tory leader by appealing to the worst instincts of the Daily Mail loving sections of the Tory membership. From what I can tell, that seems to be the majority of the members. She’s trying to replicate the same path for the Tories as the MAGAs have done with the Republicans. Given that they are already quite a long way down that road already, I don’t think she, and other opportunists in the party, will have problems taking the Tories further.

Yes.

I have said similar elsewhere.

In fact, she might calculate that any harm to Sunak's electoral performance and thus the Tory party's performance would be beneficial to her chances of becoming leader.

[Opti]

'Lifestyle choice' is a phrase that boils my piss. It is regularly used, more and more frequently, as an excuse to deny people who are in obviously desperate situations state resources to help them out of their situation. Particularly many people with mental health issues who are self-medicating to try and relieve their torment.

It's a catch-all weasel phrase to absolve society of its responsibilities.

[jimbob]

'Lifestyle choice' is a phrase that boils my piss. It is regularly used, more and more frequently, as an excuse to deny people who are in obviously desperate situations state resources to help them out of their situation. Particularly many people with mental health issues who are self-medicating to try and relieve their torment.

It's a catch-all weasel phrase to absolve society of its responsibilities.

Yes,

Nobody choses to sleep rough unless the alternatives are unbearable to them. They are all desperate and vulnerable.

[discovolante]

Mm, one thing I come across in Scotland fairly frequently (particularly in Glasgow, I have to say, but this is anecdotal) is people particularly with a history of trauma and/or addiction choosing to sleep on the streets rather than in some of the hotel accommodation provided by the council, because (they tell me) it's dirty and unsafe and drug use is rife. It's technically a choice yes but not one anyone wants to have to make.

[Martin Y]

As it's a lifestyle choice, simply ban charities from giving away tents in fashionable colours. Problem solved.

[philbo]

It's actually quite boring isn't it, aside from its cruelty. But I suppose tents are easier to spot and so easier to prosecute, which is erm. Something.

Intent to commit crime, perhaps?

Is yours the brown trench, or grey duffel?

Neither, I had already put it on and left

It's just distraction theatre,though, isn't it? It isn't intended to change anything in reality, and on the off-chance that these "proposed new laws" actually happen, the possibility that anything would change is irrelevant. The only purpose of this is to get a few favourable headlines in the usual media, and harden support among what she considers her core voters. The numerous adverse effects are of no interest because they don't affect her -- except, hopefully, increasing the view that Tories are the Nasty Party among the not-total-c.nts majority.

Yeah - I smell a leadership bid from it. Though it's less sad that she's this heartless and cruel, more that this means she thinks that the Tory party membership is similarly heartless so this sort of posturing is actually appealing to them. I don't think she has thought far enough ahead to what will appeal to the country as a whole.

[jimbob]

Intent to commit crime, perhaps?

Is yours the brown trench, or grey duffel?

Neither, I had already put it on and left

It's just distraction theatre,though, isn't it? It isn't intended to change anything in reality, and on the off-chance that these "proposed new laws" actually happen, the possibility that anything would change is irrelevant. The only purpose of this is to get a few favourable headlines in the usual media, and harden support among what she considers her core voters. The numerous adverse effects are of no interest because they don't affect her -- except, hopefully, increasing the view that Tories are the Nasty Party among the not-total-c.nts majority.

Yeah - I smell a leadership bid from it. Though it's less sad that she's this heartless and cruel, more that this means she thinks that the Tory party membership is similarly heartless so this sort of posturing is actually appealing to them. I don't think she has thought far enough ahead to what will appeal to the country as a whole.

I don't know why he's not sacked Braverman. To fail to do so, Sunak would have to be the sort of person who is so politically dim that he could be outmanoeuvred by Liz Truss in a leadership contest.

Mm, one thing I come across in Scotland fairly frequently (particularly in Glasgow, I have to say, but this is anecdotal) is people particularly with a history of trauma and/or addiction choosing to sleep on the streets rather than in some of the hotel accommodation provided by the council, because (they tell me) it's dirty and unsafe and drug use is rife. It's technically a choice yes but not one anyone wants to have to make.

Yes, that was one of the things I was thinking of.

[Gfamily]

Quite a lot of rough sleepers are ex-services.

I know* that special forces services often use rough sleeping as a means of spotting and surveillance in urban areas, with periods spent doing this as part of their readiness preparation.

*Grandson of a friend.

[kerrya1]

So would this 17 year old boy have been arrested by the police after being given a tent by the council?*

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... in-a-tent




*I suspect the tent may have been pitched on a proper camp site, but nothing in the story confirms that

[philbo]

I don't know why he's not sacked Braverman. To fail to do so, Sunak would have to be the sort of person who is so politically dim that he could be outmanoeuvred by Liz Truss in a leadership contest.

He has all the political instincts of a wet paper bag - the only reason he got the job is that there is nobody around him even remotely credible (and as you point out, he even managed to lose to the most catastrophic PM the country has ever had). Also completely lacking in humanity/empathy, or Braverman would be long gone (if she'd been given the job in the first place).

He clearly has no idea what he should be doing, and doesn't appear to notice those around him sharpening their knives and inspecting his back for a good stabbing point. And while it would be an act of shortsighted idiocy for one of them to oust him prior to the GE, it is quite possible that Badenoch, Mordaunt or similar might have the sort of self-delusion that thinks they might be the one to pull off an unlikely victory. It may be that Truss will be only the second shortest premiership by the end of 2024.

[jimbob]

I don't know why he's not sacked Braverman. To fail to do so, Sunak would have to be the sort of person who is so politically dim that he could be outmanoeuvred by Liz Truss in a leadership contest.

He has all the political instincts of a wet paper bag - the only reason he got the job is that there is nobody around him even remotely credible (and as you point out, he even managed to lose to the most catastrophic PM the country has ever had). Also completely lacking in humanity/empathy, or Braverman would be long gone (if she'd been given the job in the first place).

He clearly has no idea what he should be doing, and doesn't appear to notice those around him sharpening their knives and inspecting his back for a good stabbing point. And while it would be an act of shortsighted idiocy for one of them to oust him prior to the GE, it is quite possible that Badenoch, Mordaunt or similar might have the sort of self-delusion that thinks they might be the one to pull off an unlikely victory. It may be that Truss will be only the second shortest premiership by the end of 2024.

They are not inspecting his back for a stabbing point. They have progressed to getting the permanent markers out and are drawing the preferred sites on it

[cvb]

It could be that she is just that must of a f.cker. i suspect she is deep down.

[Sciolus]

One day, the Emir overheard Nasreddin Hodja boasting that he could teach a donkey to talk. The Emir was so impressed that he ordered Hodja to teach his donkey to talk, giving him a huge purse of gold coins but threatening him with death if he failed and the donkey still couldn't talk after ten years.

When Hodja's wife heard this, she wailed and berated him, saying he would surely be killed for failing the Emir's impossible task.

Don't worry, said Hodja. We've got the money, and ten years before we need to teach the donkey talk. In that time, three things could happen: I might die; the Emir might die; or maybe the donkey will learn to talk.

[tenchboy]

One day, the Emir overheard Nasreddin Hodja boasting that he could teach a donkey to talk. The Emir was so impressed that he ordered Hodja to teach his donkey to talk, giving him a huge purse of gold coins but threatening him with death if he failed and the donkey still couldn't talk after ten years.

When Hodja's wife heard this, she wailed and berated him, saying he would surely be killed for failing the Emir's impossible task.

Don't worry, said Hodja. We've got the money, and ten years before we need to teach the donkey talk. In that time, three things could happen: I might die; the Emir might die; or maybe the donkey will learn to talk.

4. The donkey might die.

[Grumble]

One day, the Emir overheard Nasreddin Hodja boasting that he could teach a donkey to talk. The Emir was so impressed that he ordered Hodja to teach his donkey to talk, giving him a huge purse of gold coins but threatening him with death if he failed and the donkey still couldn't talk after ten years.

When Hodja's wife heard this, she wailed and berated him, saying he would surely be killed for failing the Emir's impossible task.

Don't worry, said Hodja. We've got the money, and ten years before we need to teach the donkey talk. In that time, three things could happen: I might die; the Emir might die; or maybe the donkey will learn to talk.

4. The donkey might die.

and we were all very sad about that, only last week it was talking so well, my wife is a witness.