Spacex has cavalier approach to safety

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jimbob
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Spacex has cavalier approach to safety

Post by jimbob » Sun Nov 12, 2023 9:50 am

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/sp ... sk-safety/
SpaceX rockets on a launchpad near Brownsville, Texas. The facility had a worker-injury rate six times the space-industry average in 2022. REUTERS/Go Nakamura

Reuters documented at least 600 previously unreported workplace injuries at Musk’s rocket company: crushed limbs, amputations, electrocutions, head and eye wounds and one death. SpaceX employees say they’re paying the price for the billionaire’s push to colonize space at breakneck speed.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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bob sterman
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Re: Spacex has cavalier approach to safety

Post by bob sterman » Sun Nov 12, 2023 10:50 am

Could equally write...

[insert name of Musk owned company] has cavalier approach to safety

e.g.


Unsafe & Injurious Working Conditions Reported At Tesla Factory

https://thesuffolkpersonalinjurylawyer. ... a-factory/

Tesla says its factory is safer. But it left injuries off the books
https://revealnews.org/article/tesla-sa ... the-books/

Inside Tesla’s Model 3 Factory, Where Safety Violations Keep Rising

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsma ... el-3-push/

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Re: Spacex has cavalier approach to safety

Post by jimbob » Sun Nov 12, 2023 11:46 am

bob sterman wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2023 10:50 am
Could equally write...

[insert name of Musk owned company] has cavalier approach to safety

e.g.


Unsafe & Injurious Working Conditions Reported At Tesla Factory

https://thesuffolkpersonalinjurylawyer. ... a-factory/

Tesla says its factory is safer. But it left injuries off the books
https://revealnews.org/article/tesla-sa ... the-books/

Inside Tesla’s Model 3 Factory, Where Safety Violations Keep Rising

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsma ... el-3-push/
True.

But even so the death was due to a particularly blatant disregard for risks.

Having the task of transporting insulation and neglecting anything to tie it down to the truck... So getting an employee to sit on it to try to weight it down. All due to the lack of something that costs a few tens of dollars. And which even dodgy transit vans on the motorway tend to have.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Spacex has cavalier approach to safety

Post by bob sterman » Sun Nov 19, 2023 9:58 am

And the latest failed launch is being described as an "incredibly successful day" - with that now well-used SpaceX euphemism for explosion - a "rapid unscheduled disassembly".

https://www.spacex.com/launches/mission ... p-flight-2

So of the 7 SpaceX Starship test flights lasting longer than 1 minute - 6 have ended with a "rapid unscheduled disassembly".

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Re: Spacex has cavalier approach to safety

Post by tenchboy » Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:44 am

bob sterman wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 9:58 am
And the latest failed launch is being described as an "incredibly successful day" - with that now well-used SpaceX euphemism for explosion - a "rapid unscheduled disassembly".

https://www.spacex.com/launches/mission ... p-flight-2

So of the 7 SpaceX Starship test flights lasting longer than 1 minute - 6 have ended with a "rapid unscheduled disassembly".
:) "Unscheduled return to earth"
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jimbob
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Re: Spacex has cavalier approach to safety

Post by jimbob » Sun Nov 19, 2023 2:59 pm

bob sterman wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 9:58 am
And the latest failed launch is being described as an "incredibly successful day" - with that now well-used SpaceX euphemism for explosion - a "rapid unscheduled disassembly".

https://www.spacex.com/launches/mission ... p-flight-2

So of the 7 SpaceX Starship test flights lasting longer than 1 minute - 6 have ended with a "rapid unscheduled disassembly".
To be fair, they did manage to exercise the novel separation mechanism this time.

Over on ISF, I have been arguing that the first launch was pointless because it failed at a known weak point that they were intending to fix before anything novel had the chance to get tested. Also the risk to the local town was obviously too high given the tardiness of the disintegration rather than self destruct. And the damage to the neighbouring protected environment that was not SpaceX property... Which is also why I don't see how the libertarians are giving him a free pass. Because he's not paying sufficient compensation for damage to other people's property.
*.

*Property not potential injury because he'll, they're libertarians so lives have a weird and bad value relative to property.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Spacex has cavalier approach to safety

Post by bolo » Sun Nov 19, 2023 3:22 pm

RUD isn't particularly a SpaceX euphemism. It's been around much longer than that.

ETA this thread suggests that it dates back to at least the 1960s.

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Re: Spacex has cavalier approach to safety

Post by bjn » Sun Nov 19, 2023 8:01 pm

You generally go through a lot of rockets before you get it right. Very few rocket programs get it right first time, some not even on the tenth time. Also SpaceX is trying for iterative design that may blow more rockets up, but end up being cheaper. The Space Launch System used for the Artemis program got it right first time, but was eyebleedingly expensive.

Musk is still an a..eh.le regardless.

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Re: Spacex has cavalier approach to safety

Post by jimbob » Sun Nov 19, 2023 9:58 pm

bjn wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 8:01 pm
You generally go through a lot of rockets before you get it right. Very few rocket programs get it right first time, some not even on the tenth time. Also SpaceX is trying for iterative design that may blow more rockets up, but end up being cheaper. The Space Launch System used for the Artemis program got it right first time, but was eyebleedingly expensive.

Musk is still an a..eh.le regardless.
And the previous Starship launch taught SpaceX nothing beyond the fact that something that was found to be essential for space launches 60 years ago is still essential. And that their self destruct didn't work as desired.

One was useless and the other was a risky way to find out - potentially risking thousands of casualties in Port Isabel or Brownville
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Re: Spacex has cavalier approach to safety

Post by Pishwish » Mon Nov 20, 2023 3:42 am

And the previous Starship launch taught SpaceX nothing beyond the fact that something that was found to be essential for space launches 60 years ago is still essential. And that their self destruct didn't work as desired.

One was useless and the other was a risky way to find out - potentially risking thousands of casualties in Port Isabel or Brownville
Flame trenches are still essential for launches? SpaceX learned nothing beyond this and the fact that their FTS didn't work properly?
SpaceX wrote: Starship’s first flight test provided numerous lessons learned that are directly contributing to several upgrades being made to both the vehicle and ground infrastructure to improve the probability of success on future Starship flights...During [the first test flight's] ascent, the vehicle sustained fires from leaking propellant in the aft end of the Super Heavy booster, which eventually severed connection with the vehicle’s primary flight computer. This led to a loss of communications to the majority of booster engines and, ultimately, control of the vehicle. SpaceX has since implemented leak mitigations and improved testing on both engine and booster hardware. As an additional corrective action, SpaceX has significantly expanded Super Heavy’s pre-existing fire suppression system in order to mitigate against future engine bay fires.


There is a lot of anti-SpaceX commentary out there, mainly motivated by dislike of Musk (combined with an ignorance of spaceflight). I get it, I feel little joy in SpaceX's progress these days given his recent behaviour, but invalid criticism still gets on my nerves.
Lots of SpaceX critics on twitter made predictions that the last launch wouldn't take place this year if at all; it would be a disaster (the pad would be destroyed, the steel plate deluge system wouldn't work, the raptors are too unreliable, there are too many engines, etc.) Few have reflected on their inaccurate predictions, instead taking comfort in the failed goals of the launch.

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Re: Spacex has cavalier approach to safety

Post by jimbob » Wed Dec 13, 2023 9:23 pm

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/13/tech ... index.html

Who would have thought that if you have a feature that can sort of drive for you and you call it autopilot, people would use it as if it was a self driving car?
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Spacex has cavalier approach to safety

Post by bob sterman » Tue Dec 26, 2023 9:24 pm

Tesla factory worker attacked by robot that dug its claws into back and arm: report
https://nypost.com/2023/12/26/business/ ... -back-arm/

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Re: Spacex has cavalier approach to safety

Post by Gfamily » Tue Dec 26, 2023 9:38 pm

My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!

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Re: Spacex has cavalier approach to safety

Post by bjn » Wed Dec 27, 2023 9:11 am

Reuters has a report out on the consistent failure of basic automotive parts in a range of Tesla cars. Steering linkages, suspension components and drive shafts, stuff the rest of the industry tend to get right and have done so for a while. It appears that Tesla knew of these problems but they would blame failures on customers in an attempt to save money on warranty repairs. Reuters quotes internal documents to support this, including communications between engineers and the interesting fact that about 5% of Tesla cars in the Southern Europe and Middle Eastern market had a failure in a single “aft link” suspension component. China has force a Tesla recall to address some of these issues, while regulators in the rest of the world have yet to do anything.

Incidents quoted include a chap whose new car’s suspension collapsed less while turning at low speed than a day after collecting it from Tesla. The company insisted he had damaged it and made him pay for repairs. Another was an electrical failure they blamed on a customer because he had the temerity to put his car through a car wash.

The article points out that if Tesla were to take responsibility and pay for the repairs to their faulty cars it would be a big hit to their profitability and their market valuation.

My main issue with the report is that it doesn’t compare failure rates and modes to new cars from other manufacturers.

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/sp ... uspension/

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Re: Spacex has cavalier approach to safety

Post by Grumble » Wed Dec 27, 2023 1:01 pm

bjn wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2023 9:11 am
Reuters has a report out on the consistent failure of basic automotive parts in a range of Tesla cars. Steering linkages, suspension components and drive shafts, stuff the rest of the industry tend to get right and have done so for a while. It appears that Tesla knew of these problems but they would blame failures on customers in an attempt to save money on warranty repairs. Reuters quotes internal documents to support this, including communications between engineers and the interesting fact that about 5% of Tesla cars in the Southern Europe and Middle Eastern market had a failure in a single “aft link” suspension component. China has force a Tesla recall to address some of these issues, while regulators in the rest of the world have yet to do anything.

Incidents quoted include a chap whose new car’s suspension collapsed less while turning at low speed than a day after collecting it from Tesla. The company insisted he had damaged it and made him pay for repairs. Another was an electrical failure they blamed on a customer because he had the temerity to put his car through a car wash.

The article points out that if Tesla were to take responsibility and pay for the repairs to their faulty cars it would be a big hit to their profitability and their market valuation.

My main issue with the report is that it doesn’t compare failure rates and modes to new cars from other manufacturers.

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/sp ... uspension/
There was a Toyota recall recently for wheels falling off, I think these kind of things happen. The bad thing really is Tesla denying and deflecting.
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Re: Spacex has cavalier approach to safety

Post by bob sterman » Wed Dec 27, 2023 7:36 pm

bjn wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2023 9:11 am
Reuters has a report out on the consistent failure of basic automotive parts in a range of Tesla cars. Steering linkages, suspension components and drive shafts, stuff the rest of the industry tend to get right and have done so for a while.
Could the high failure rates be due to EVs generally being heavier than petrol/diesel powered cars?

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Re: Spacex has cavalier approach to safety

Post by dyqik » Wed Dec 27, 2023 8:30 pm

bob sterman wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2023 7:36 pm
bjn wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2023 9:11 am
Reuters has a report out on the consistent failure of basic automotive parts in a range of Tesla cars. Steering linkages, suspension components and drive shafts, stuff the rest of the industry tend to get right and have done so for a while.
Could the high failure rates be due to EVs generally being heavier than petrol/diesel powered cars?
Regular car companies don't have these issues to the same degree on trucks, electric trucks, ICE cars, hybrid cars or EVs.

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Re: Spacex has cavalier approach to safety

Post by Grumble » Wed Dec 27, 2023 9:45 pm

bob sterman wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2023 7:36 pm
bjn wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2023 9:11 am
Reuters has a report out on the consistent failure of basic automotive parts in a range of Tesla cars. Steering linkages, suspension components and drive shafts, stuff the rest of the industry tend to get right and have done so for a while.
Could the high failure rates be due to EVs generally being heavier than petrol/diesel powered cars?
9 of the 10 heaviest cars on sale are petrol or diesel powered
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Re: Spacex has cavalier approach to safety

Post by bob sterman » Thu Dec 28, 2023 8:36 am

Grumble wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2023 9:45 pm
bob sterman wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2023 7:36 pm
bjn wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2023 9:11 am
Reuters has a report out on the consistent failure of basic automotive parts in a range of Tesla cars. Steering linkages, suspension components and drive shafts, stuff the rest of the industry tend to get right and have done so for a while.
Could the high failure rates be due to EVs generally being heavier than petrol/diesel powered cars?
9 of the 10 heaviest cars on sale are petrol or diesel powered
Where? Not in the UK. 5 of 10 heaviest are EV or Hybrid.

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/tips-advi ... -cars-sale

Some Teslas have weights close to these luxury models (e.g. 2,400 kg). If they using suspension components etc more typical of mid-market lighter cars maybe that could be contributing to the high failure rates?

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Re: Spacex has cavalier approach to safety

Post by Grumble » Thu Dec 28, 2023 10:02 am

bob sterman wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2023 8:36 am
Grumble wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2023 9:45 pm
bob sterman wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2023 7:36 pm


Could the high failure rates be due to EVs generally being heavier than petrol/diesel powered cars?
9 of the 10 heaviest cars on sale are petrol or diesel powered
Where? Not in the UK. 5 of 10 heaviest are EV or Hybrid.

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/tips-advi ... -cars-sale

Some Teslas have weights close to these luxury models (e.g. 2,400 kg). If they using suspension components etc more typical of mid-market lighter cars maybe that could be contributing to the high failure rates?
I must have been looking at old info.
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Re: Spacex has cavalier approach to safety

Post by noggins » Thu Dec 28, 2023 12:03 pm

Meh, the details of the “top ten…” are irrelevant if they are low volume outliers, what matters is eg petrol golf vs electric golf.
I suspect its Tesla inexperience showing through.

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Re: Spacex has cavalier approach to safety

Post by Grumble » Thu Dec 28, 2023 12:25 pm

noggins wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2023 12:03 pm
Meh, the details of the “top ten…” are irrelevant if they are low volume outliers, what matters is eg petrol golf vs electric golf.
I suspect its Tesla inexperience showing through.
Like I say, Toyota have had quite a few recalls over the years for fairly basic mistakes. The difference is more that they didn’t try to blame the drivers.
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Re: Spacex has cavalier approach to safety

Post by lpm » Thu Dec 28, 2023 1:19 pm

noggins wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2023 12:03 pm
Meh, the details of the “top ten…” are irrelevant if they are low volume outliers, what matters is eg petrol golf vs electric golf.
I suspect its Tesla inexperience showing through.
The top 10 best selling UK cars will include Qashqai, Sportage, Tuscon etc. These have a similar weight to a Tesla.

All cars are getting heavier. The myth that BEVs are heavy comes from a deliberate lie from the vested interests. Not having an engine goes a long way to compensating for the weight of batteries.
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Re: Spacex has cavalier approach to safety

Post by bjn » Thu Dec 28, 2023 2:45 pm

Grumble wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2023 12:25 pm
noggins wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2023 12:03 pm
Meh, the details of the “top ten…” are irrelevant if they are low volume outliers, what matters is eg petrol golf vs electric golf.
I suspect its Tesla inexperience showing through.
Like I say, Toyota have had quite a few recalls over the years for fairly basic mistakes. The difference is more that they didn’t try to blame the drivers.
I’d like to see a comparison of failure rates.

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Re: Spacex has cavalier approach to safety

Post by insignificant » Thu Dec 28, 2023 3:15 pm

The range of kerb weights for the Mk8 Golf is 1255-1465 kg v 1772-1935 kg for the ID.3

The battery in the ID.3 model with the longest range weighs just under 500 kg

So I don't think it's a myth, but it also doesn't matter

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