Justin Webb complaint: “transwomen, in other words males”

[Tristan]

Justin Webb has had a complaint against him upheld for saying “transwomen, in other words males” whilst reporting on transwomen accessing women’s sport. https://pressgazette.co.uk/the-wire/new ... complaint/

This seems odd to me. The biological sex of competitors in women’s sport is highly relevant to the story. What Webb said helped add clarity to what the story was about. It’s worrying that he’s had a complaint upheld about a perfectly reasonable statement.

[TopBadger]

Posts like this always make me wonder if it's worth contributing to discussions that are an intractable can of worms.

[Tristan]

Why is it intractable?

[IvanV]

Justin Webb has had a complaint against him upheld for saying “transwomen, in other words males” whilst reporting on transwomen accessing women’s sport. https://pressgazette.co.uk/the-wire/new ... complaint/

This seems odd to me. The biological sex of competitors in women’s sport is highly relevant to the story. What Webb said helped add clarity to what the story was about. It’s worrying that he’s had a complaint upheld about a perfectly reasonable statement.

If we read the article, it seems clear that if he had said "biological males", that would have been fine. In other words, it is is acceptable on the BBC to distinguish gender identity and biological sex, but unacceptable to conflate them. The latter was the offence that was committed.

Indeed to talk about the transgender in sport issue, it is essential to distinguish them. If we read actual sports organisation policies on this, such as by random example, the first one I looked at, the International Tennis Federation transgender policy, it is very much in the business of distinguishing gender identity and biological sex. So it is quite possible to talk about that on the BBC, using just the words they use.

I see this as not different from avoiding rascist, sexist and homophobic language when it became unacceptable to use those. Many of us had a bit of difficulty getting our head around what was and was not acceptable before we got used to it. Indeed there are plenty of people around who still have that difficulty. And as there are people who call even that much dangerous wokery.

[Grumble]

Ignore

[Grumble]

Why is it intractable?

Because emotions run high on both sides

[lpm]

The general public don't actually know the terms we take for granted. I had a conversation recently which was basically "Is that a woman who's become a man or the other way around?" And as for words like "cis"...

Depends on the audience. For some the BBC should dumb down. Imposing nuance impedes understanding.

[dyqik]

Why is it intractable?

It's not intractable, it's very simple. The guy is a hate filled bigot, and I've blocked you on most social media for promoting hate filled bigots like him.

From your behavior here and yesterday, I can only assume that you are intent on bringing your hate to this site as well.

[lpm]

Yes, here we go again, an extremist calling people in the reasonable centre ground "hate filled bigots".

Out in the real world the argument is over. Overwhelming agreement that males must be barred from women's prisons and elite women's sports.

[JQH]

Maybe I'm being naive here, but why can't sports have separate categories for trans athletes?

[dyqik]

Yes, here we go again, an extremist calling people in the reasonable centre ground "hate filled bigots".

Out in the real world the argument is over. Overwhelming agreement that males must be barred from women's prisons and elite women's sports.

Your use of "males" here identifies you as one of transphobic bigots.

In the real world, my state voted to enshrine trans rights in the state constitution by an overwhelming margin, and none of this debate is relevant to anyone other than men trying make themselves feel big by protecting the little women.

Do you call for athletes to be required to compete for their birth countries?

[Tristan]

Yes, here we go again, an extremist calling people in the reasonable centre ground "hate filled bigots".

Out in the real world the argument is over. Overwhelming agreement that males must be barred from women's prisons and elite women's sports.

Remarkable isn't it? Yesterday someone makes a bad faith implied accusation against Helen Joyce. And today we get rants against perfectly reasonable journalists using clear language for their audience. Talk about hate-filled!

[Tristan]

Maybe I'm being naive here, but why can't sports have separate categories for trans athletes?

Sure. Though maybe easier to have an Open category (males + transmen) and then a womens (female) category.

[Tristan]

Yes, here we go again, an extremist calling people in the reasonable centre ground "hate filled bigots".

Out in the real world the argument is over. Overwhelming agreement that males must be barred from women's prisons and elite women's sports.

Your use of "males" here identifies you as one of transphobic bigots.

But they are males. Now, we can and should treat them as women for most intents and purposes, use preferred pronouns as a matter of courtesy (though shouldn't be mandated). GRCs provide a legal fiction to support that.

BUT there are some situation where actual sex is relevant. LPM identified two of them there.

[dyqik]

Yes, here we go again, an extremist calling people in the reasonable centre ground "hate filled bigots".

Out in the real world the argument is over. Overwhelming agreement that males must be barred from women's prisons and elite women's sports.

Your use of "males" here identifies you as one of transphobic bigots.

But they are males. Now, we can and should treat them as women for most intents and purposes, use preferred pronouns as a matter of courtesy (though shouldn't be mandated). GRCs provide a legal fiction to support that.

BUT there are some situation where actual sex is relevant. LPM identified two of them there.

LPM identified two of the largely irrelevant cases that transphobes like to bring up as hobby horses, and asserted that the debate was settled.

[jimbob]

Maybe I'm being naive here, but why can't sports have separate categories for trans athletes?

I think there are good reasons for sports in particular to have different rules about this to other situations.

Not just hormone levels but the legacy of previous hormone levels.

If someone transitions after puberty, what happens to their frame, say hips and shoulders/elbows? Does their frame change or does it retain traces of their birth sex?

Also, we know from the Cold war that team doctors in East Germany would force their female athletes to get pregnant and then have abortions for athletic performance. It's not a stretch to imagine that a male athlete in a similar regime, might be forced to transition in order to get better medal performance, so it makes sense to prevent this giving an advantage.

[monkey]

Justin Webb has had a complaint against him upheld for saying “transwomen, in other words males” whilst reporting on transwomen accessing women’s sport. https://pressgazette.co.uk/the-wire/new ... complaint/

This seems odd to me. The biological sex of competitors in women’s sport is highly relevant to the story. What Webb said helped add clarity to what the story was about. It’s worrying that he’s had a complaint upheld about a perfectly reasonable statement.

Chess isn't a sport, it's a board game.

[dyqik]

Yes, here we go again, an extremist calling people in the reasonable centre ground "hate filled bigots".

Out in the real world the argument is over. Overwhelming agreement that males must be barred from women's prisons and elite women's sports.

Remarkable isn't it? Yesterday someone makes a bad faith implied accusation against Helen Joyce. And today we get rants against perfectly reasonable journalists using clear language for their audience. Talk about hate-filled!

Sure, you spend your time posting transphobic articles on here, on the Scrutable Facebook group, and on Twitter on a regular basis, with little other engagement, and I'm the hate filled one.

[Tristan]

Justin Webb has had a complaint against him upheld for saying “transwomen, in other words males” whilst reporting on transwomen accessing women’s sport. https://pressgazette.co.uk/the-wire/new ... complaint/

This seems odd to me. The biological sex of competitors in women’s sport is highly relevant to the story. What Webb said helped add clarity to what the story was about. It’s worrying that he’s had a complaint upheld about a perfectly reasonable statement.

Chess isn't a sport, it's a board game.

The IOC begs to differ

[Stephanie]

Us little women can't pick up the pieces or something

[El Pollo Diablo]

Yes, here we go again, an extremist calling people in the reasonable centre ground "hate filled bigots".

Out in the real world the argument is over. Overwhelming agreement that males must be barred from women's prisons and elite women's sports.

Remarkable isn't it? Yesterday someone makes a bad faith implied accusation against Helen Joyce. And today we get rants against perfectly reasonable journalists using clear language for their audience. Talk about hate-filled!

I didn't make any accusation, implicit or explicit, against Helen Joyce. I described what she did and what her response was. Retract that.

[Tristan]

Yes, here we go again, an extremist calling people in the reasonable centre ground "hate filled bigots".

Out in the real world the argument is over. Overwhelming agreement that males must be barred from women's prisons and elite women's sports.

Remarkable isn't it? Yesterday someone makes a bad faith implied accusation against Helen Joyce. And today we get rants against perfectly reasonable journalists using clear language for their audience. Talk about hate-filled!

I didn't make any accusation, implicit or explicit, against Helen Joyce. I described what she did and what her response was. Retract that.

No I won't retract that. Your wording was clearly meant to imply something sinister was going on.

[Bewildered]

Yes, here we go again, an extremist calling people in the reasonable centre ground "hate filled bigots".

Yes during the civil rights era lots of “reasonable centre ground” people whose views were somewhere between the kkk and far leftists who wanted equal rights for everyone had to endure being called hate filled bigots.

For what it’s worth, I think this is a complicated issue and I can see problems with sports and some arguments for other things. But arguments like this are ridiculous, a view being in “centre ground”, even if true, doesn’t show whether it’s a bigoted view or not.

And in the case of the actual OP it’s really not hard to see why calling a group of people who see their gender as female “men”, without qualification that you mean their biological gender, would be a very upsetting and unpleasant thing to do.

[lpm]

Your use of "males" here identifies you as one of transphobic bigots.

It is not transphobic to talk about biology. The controversy over sport simply makes no sense if you are banned from talking about biology. Discussion cannot take place if an extremist labels you as a transphobic bigot for bringing in biology.

[Bewildered]

Remarkable isn't it? Yesterday someone makes a bad faith implied accusation against Helen Joyce. And today we get rants against perfectly reasonable journalists using clear language for their audience. Talk about hate-filled!

I didn't make any accusation, implicit or explicit, against Helen Joyce. I described what she did and what her response was. Retract that.

No I won't retract that. Your wording was clearly meant to imply something sinister was going on.

For what it’s worth I agree with Tristan regarding your post there. My impression was that Twitter thread seemed a bit of stretch and you took it even further with the thread title and OP.