Justin Webb complaint: “transwomen, in other words males”

[lpm]

LPM identified two of the largely irrelevant cases that transphobes like to bring up as hobby horses, and asserted that the debate was settled.

Why do you get to decide that these are "largely irrelevent"? Just because there is no relevance to your life?

Incarcerated women don't think it is irrelevant. Women in sport don't think it is irrelevant.

[Tristan]

And in the case of the actual OP it’s really not hard to see why calling a group of people who see their gender as female “men”, without qualification that you mean their biological gender, would be a very upsetting and unpleasant thing to do.

He didn't call them men.

[Bewildered]

And in the case of the actual OP it’s really not hard to see why calling a group of people who see their gender as female “men”, without qualification that you mean their biological gender, would be a very upsetting and unpleasant thing to do.

He didn't call them men.

Right it was “males”. I don’t see any significant difference though.

[JQH]

Us little women can't pick up the pieces or something

You raise a good point. Exactly what advantage could being born male confer on a chess player?

[lpm]

Us little women can't pick up the pieces or something

You raise a good point. Exactly what advantage could being born male confer on a chess player?

There are many advantages to being born male for chess.

[JQH]

Such as?

[Tristan]

Such as?

Being able to fit in at a local chess club that's full of other boys/men and not having to face the sexism often inherent in groups like that.

[noggins]

seems a different kind of advantage to muscle and bone

[lpm]

seems a different kind of advantage to muscle and bone

Yes that sums it up, males have many different kinds of advantages over females in our society, beyond just muscle and bone.

[warumich]

I've bought a beautiful new house by a lake in 2019, but I've not been able to invite my brother over to admire the most beautiful garden in Surrey yet, because he hasn't been able to come to the UK since Brexit because he doesn't have a passport, only a German ID card.

Why doesn't he have a passport? He applied for one, like 5-6 years ago (honestly I lost count for how long this saga has been going on), with his brand shiny new MALE birth certificate that the court recognised as valid after his transition. But he had to fight petty officials all the way for them to recognise it for the passport. Then I heard from our mother in December was that it's now finally done, he'll get his passport, and he's booked a flight to London for February. In January he gets his passport, and it says f.cking FEMALE. WTF right? He gets letters from the court addressed as to him as Herr Whatever, but one, to coin a phrase, hateful bigot at my hometown's passport office decides that he's not really male, and it's all for the birds.

So, planned holidays are f.cked, and I'm still unable to see my own brother unless I go to Germany (we'll actually meet in Spain in May). Can't he travel to the UK on a female passport? Yea maybe, however you try to explain to border control that a buff, balding muscly guy with a beard has the right passport (not the sort of person btw who you'd want to go into the female toilets, or go to a female prison, but that's another issue). Sure it'll be fine, but also he doesn't really want the potential hassle. So we'll fight this, like we've been fighting "hateful bigots" in various official capacities for the last 6 years (getting the birth certificate changed was a saga by itself, there was a reason the courts were involved...). But also, this is oh so f.cking tiring, and for someone with fragile mental health caused partly by decades of anti-trans bullying it sometimes gets a bit too much and (like he did plenty of times before) he has a tendency to just go "oh f.ck the whole b.llsh.t" and leave it. At other times setbacks like this have affected him so much he's been hospitalised with severe depression; this time thank god he "only" got f.cking furious. So it falls onto my 76 year old parents to doorstep local councillors, pull in favours with solicitor friends to get advice, hire solicitors, spend money travelling, arguing the toss with hateful bigots at the local council and whatnot, when they should be enjoying retirement.

Trans people live these aggressions all the time; it's depressing for anyone, but doubly so for people who've already had to endure a lifetime of microaggressions. At least my brother has a supportive family I suppose, one of his friends has been completely cut off from his parents because they believe that he can change back to being their daughter any time he likes and he's just doing this to spite them.

Not saying anyone here is acting like our lovely passport office, but is being a little bit more considerate with the language we use, knowing that it would make a difference to the quality of life of a relatively large group of already suffering people, really so objectionable?

[shpalman]

... shiny new MALE birth certificate that the court recognised as valid after his transition...

... is being a little bit more considerate with the language we use, knowing that it would make a difference to the quality of life of a relatively large group of already suffering people, really so objectionable?

Obviously you're not a bigot for acknowledging that your brother is male after his transition, which implies that he wasn't before. But also obviously, there are forms of words which are considered bigoted which refer to the same thing (e.g. the OP and subsequent discussion.)

Or am I not even allowed at all to say that he wasn't male before, and then after the transition, he is? In which case, how are we supposed to talk about this situation?

Disclaimer: I don't know or care anything about Justin Webb.

[Stephanie]

Such as?

Being able to fit in at a local chess club that's full of other boys/men and not having to face the sexism often inherent in groups like that.

Do you imagine a trans woman would fit in with these boys and men then?

[El Pollo Diablo]

... shiny new MALE birth certificate that the court recognised as valid after his transition...

... is being a little bit more considerate with the language we use, knowing that it would make a difference to the quality of life of a relatively large group of already suffering people, really so objectionable?

Obviously you're not a bigot for acknowledging that your brother is male after his transition, which implies that he wasn't before. But also obviously, there are forms of words which are considered bigoted which refer to the same thing (e.g. the OP and subsequent discussion.)

Or am I not even allowed at all to say that he wasn't male before, and then after the transition, he is? In which case, how are we supposed to talk about this situation?

Disclaimer: I don't know or care anything about Justin Webb.

Well, with some compassion, for a start. Rather than as sub-humans, perverts and molesters which is what most transphobes like Webb think of trans people as.

[shpalman]

Such as?

Being able to fit in at a local chess club that's full of other boys/men and not having to face the sexism often inherent in groups like that.

Do you imagine a trans woman would fit in with these boys and men then?

I think the implication is that they frequent their local chess club as a boy and then as a man but then cynically transition to compete against women who have been disadvantaged in the local chess club, or something, and thereby gain an advantage.

[shpalman]

... shiny new MALE birth certificate that the court recognised as valid after his transition...

... is being a little bit more considerate with the language we use, knowing that it would make a difference to the quality of life of a relatively large group of already suffering people, really so objectionable?

Obviously you're not a bigot for acknowledging that your brother is male after his transition, which implies that he wasn't before. But also obviously, there are forms of words which are considered bigoted which refer to the same thing (e.g. the OP and subsequent discussion.)

Or am I not even allowed at all to say that he wasn't male before, and then after the transition, he is? In which case, how are we supposed to talk about this situation?

Disclaimer: I don't know or care anything about Justin Webb.

Well, with some compassion, for a start. Rather than as sub-humans, perverts and molesters which is what most transphobes like Webb think of trans people as.

You realize, I hope, that I wasn't going to refer to warumich's brother as any of those things?

[TopBadger]

See... I told you... it's an intractable can of worms.

For the record, I don't give two hoots what pronouns folks want to use, or bathroom stall folks want to use. That said I'm also of the opinion that there needs to be a birth gender based female sport category to protect fairness of competition in elite female sport. I don't see many people arguing for gender equality on this point... it seems to be accepted that in physical sports women will in general be at a disadvantage to men, or people born as men.

Having an open category seems to be the best that can be offered to transwomen, and to any female who wants equality with the men.

I didn't realise the OP was about chess... no idea why that isn't gender neutral already given there is no appreciable difference in mental reasoning between genders.

There - that's my contribution to this can of worms...

[El Pollo Diablo]

You realize, I hope, that I wasn't going to refer to warumich's brother as any of those things?

No, of course, I didn't intend to imply that you were, apologies if I gave that impression. It's just that the missing element from how transphobes talk about trans people is compassion and realising them to be human. Instead, the language from them is in line with what Terry Pratchett described as "treating people as things". And we've historically seen exactly the same thing for women, ethnic minorities and gay people.

[Tristan]

Such as?

Being able to fit in at a local chess club that's full of other boys/men and not having to face the sexism often inherent in groups like that.

Do you imagine a trans woman would fit in with these boys and men then?

It'll vary, but those who transition later in life (not uncommon) and have grown up acting/presenting as boys and men may well do, yes.

[warumich]

... shiny new MALE birth certificate that the court recognised as valid after his transition...

... is being a little bit more considerate with the language we use, knowing that it would make a difference to the quality of life of a relatively large group of already suffering people, really so objectionable?

Obviously you're not a bigot for acknowledging that your brother is male after his transition, which implies that he wasn't before. But also obviously, there are forms of words which are considered bigoted which refer to the same thing (e.g. the OP and subsequent discussion.)

Or am I not even allowed at all to say that he wasn't male before, and then after the transition, he is? In which case, how are we supposed to talk about this situation?

Disclaimer: I don't know or care anything about Justin Webb.

The language that is considered ok I agree is often arbitrary, that goes with any pejorative term though, the N word, the P word, whatever. I don't know any transperson who would get angry if someone else uses the wrong phrase out of genuine ignorance (I'm sure there are though, any community has their share of a..eholes). However, like the N word, this has been discussed so often and so publicly, you'd expect most people who have not been living under a rock, and in particular people with high profile public roles like an archbishop, to know what words to avoid. And even then, if they didn't know, and they genuinely apologise after it's been pointed out, that would be the end of it (again, apart from a minority of a..eholes probably). It really isn't that difficult

[lpm]

Well, with some compassion, for a start. Rather than as sub-humans, perverts and molesters which is what most transphobes like Webb think of trans people as.

Webb has never expressed any such thing. You are just inventing libellous views on your own head.

If extremists label someone a "hate filled transphobe" for mentioning male biology, there's nowhere left to go when encountering real transphobes.

[Stephanie]

Being able to fit in at a local chess club that's full of other boys/men and not having to face the sexism often inherent in groups like that.

Do you imagine a trans woman would fit in with these boys and men then?

It'll vary, but those who transition later in life (not uncommon) and have grown up acting/presenting as boys and men may well do, yes.

I'd imagine that a group of men who are unwelcoming to women are not very likely to be welcoming to a trans woman, regardless of how late they transitioned.

[Tristan]

But by then they will have had the advantages and experience that many girls and women wouldn't even have had till that point.

[shpalman]

... shiny new MALE birth certificate that the court recognised as valid after his transition...

... is being a little bit more considerate with the language we use, knowing that it would make a difference to the quality of life of a relatively large group of already suffering people, really so objectionable?

Obviously you're not a bigot for acknowledging that your brother is male after his transition, which implies that he wasn't before. But also obviously, there are forms of words which are considered bigoted which refer to the same thing (e.g. the OP and subsequent discussion.)

Or am I not even allowed at all to say that he wasn't male before, and then after the transition, he is? In which case, how are we supposed to talk about this situation?

Disclaimer: I don't know or care anything about Justin Webb.

The language that is considered ok I agree is often arbitrary, that goes with any pejorative term though, the N word, the P word, whatever. I don't know any transperson who would get angry if someone else uses the wrong phrase out of genuine ignorance (I'm sure there are though, any community has their share of a..eholes). However, like the N word, this has been discussed so often and so publicly, you'd expect most people who have not been living under a rock, and in particular people with high profile public roles like an archbishop, to know what words to avoid. And even then, if they didn't know, and they genuinely apologise after it's been pointed out, that would be the end of it (again, apart from a minority of a..eholes probably). It really isn't that difficult

It obviously is a little bit difficult, because I'm asking you directly how to refer to your brother's situation, and you still haven't told me.

[warumich]

Sorry. Assigned female at birth would be one accepted way of phrasing it

[dyqik]

LPM identified two of the largely irrelevant cases that transphobes like to bring up as hobby horses, and asserted that the debate was settled.

Why do you get to decide that these are "largely irrelevent"? Just because there is no relevance to your life?

Incarcerated women don't think it is irrelevant. Women in sport don't think it is irrelevant.

Women that I have discussed this with in real life don't think it's important. Including girls in US high school sports, which is probably the area where transphobes are yelling loudest about this.