Justin Webb complaint: “transwomen, in other words males”
Justin Webb complaint: “transwomen, in other words males”
Justin Webb has had a complaint against him upheld for saying “transwomen, in other words males” whilst reporting on transwomen accessing women’s sport. https://pressgazette.co.uk/the-wire/new ... complaint/
This seems odd to me. The biological sex of competitors in women’s sport is highly relevant to the story. What Webb said helped add clarity to what the story was about. It’s worrying that he’s had a complaint upheld about a perfectly reasonable statement.
This seems odd to me. The biological sex of competitors in women’s sport is highly relevant to the story. What Webb said helped add clarity to what the story was about. It’s worrying that he’s had a complaint upheld about a perfectly reasonable statement.
Re: Justin Webb complaint: “transwomen, in other words males”
Posts like this always make me wonder if it's worth contributing to discussions that are an intractable can of worms.
You can't polish a turd...
unless its Lion or Osterich poo... http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/mythbus ... -turd.html
unless its Lion or Osterich poo... http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/mythbus ... -turd.html
Re: Justin Webb complaint: “transwomen, in other words males”
Why is it intractable?
Re: Justin Webb complaint: “transwomen, in other words males”
If we read the article, it seems clear that if he had said "biological males", that would have been fine. In other words, it is is acceptable on the BBC to distinguish gender identity and biological sex, but unacceptable to conflate them. The latter was the offence that was committed.Tristan wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2024 8:26 amJustin Webb has had a complaint against him upheld for saying “transwomen, in other words males” whilst reporting on transwomen accessing women’s sport. https://pressgazette.co.uk/the-wire/new ... complaint/
This seems odd to me. The biological sex of competitors in women’s sport is highly relevant to the story. What Webb said helped add clarity to what the story was about. It’s worrying that he’s had a complaint upheld about a perfectly reasonable statement.
Indeed to talk about the transgender in sport issue, it is essential to distinguish them. If we read actual sports organisation policies on this, such as by random example, the first one I looked at, the International Tennis Federation transgender policy, it is very much in the business of distinguishing gender identity and biological sex. So it is quite possible to talk about that on the BBC, using just the words they use.
I see this as not different from avoiding rascist, sexist and homophobic language when it became unacceptable to use those. Many of us had a bit of difficulty getting our head around what was and was not acceptable before we got used to it. Indeed there are plenty of people around who still have that difficulty. And as there are people who call even that much dangerous wokery.
Re: Justin Webb complaint: “transwomen, in other words males”
Ignore
Last edited by Grumble on Fri Mar 01, 2024 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
where once I used to scintillate
now I sin till ten past three
now I sin till ten past three
Re: Justin Webb complaint: “transwomen, in other words males”
Because emotions run high on both sides
where once I used to scintillate
now I sin till ten past three
now I sin till ten past three
Re: Justin Webb complaint: “transwomen, in other words males”
The general public don't actually know the terms we take for granted. I had a conversation recently which was basically "Is that a woman who's become a man or the other way around?" And as for words like "cis"...
Depends on the audience. For some the BBC should dumb down. Imposing nuance impedes understanding.
Depends on the audience. For some the BBC should dumb down. Imposing nuance impedes understanding.
Awarded gold star 4 November 2021
Re: Justin Webb complaint: “transwomen, in other words males”
It's not intractable, it's very simple. The guy is a hate filled bigot, and I've blocked you on most social media for promoting hate filled bigots like him.
From your behavior here and yesterday, I can only assume that you are intent on bringing your hate to this site as well.
Re: Justin Webb complaint: “transwomen, in other words males”
Yes, here we go again, an extremist calling people in the reasonable centre ground "hate filled bigots".
Out in the real world the argument is over. Overwhelming agreement that males must be barred from women's prisons and elite women's sports.
Out in the real world the argument is over. Overwhelming agreement that males must be barred from women's prisons and elite women's sports.
Awarded gold star 4 November 2021
Re: Justin Webb complaint: “transwomen, in other words males”
Maybe I'm being naive here, but why can't sports have separate categories for trans athletes?
And remember that if you botch the exit, the carnival of reaction may be coming to a town near you.
Fintan O'Toole
Fintan O'Toole
Re: Justin Webb complaint: “transwomen, in other words males”
Your use of "males" here identifies you as one of transphobic bigots.
In the real world, my state voted to enshrine trans rights in the state constitution by an overwhelming margin, and none of this debate is relevant to anyone other than men trying make themselves feel big by protecting the little women.
Do you call for athletes to be required to compete for their birth countries?
Re: Justin Webb complaint: “transwomen, in other words males”
Remarkable isn't it? Yesterday someone makes a bad faith implied accusation against Helen Joyce. And today we get rants against perfectly reasonable journalists using clear language for their audience. Talk about hate-filled!
Re: Justin Webb complaint: “transwomen, in other words males”
But they are males. Now, we can and should treat them as women for most intents and purposes, use preferred pronouns as a matter of courtesy (though shouldn't be mandated). GRCs provide a legal fiction to support that.
BUT there are some situation where actual sex is relevant. LPM identified two of them there.
Re: Justin Webb complaint: “transwomen, in other words males”
LPM identified two of the largely irrelevant cases that transphobes like to bring up as hobby horses, and asserted that the debate was settled.Tristan wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2024 1:07 pmBut they are males. Now, we can and should treat them as women for most intents and purposes, use preferred pronouns as a matter of courtesy (though shouldn't be mandated). GRCs provide a legal fiction to support that.
BUT there are some situation where actual sex is relevant. LPM identified two of them there.
Re: Justin Webb complaint: “transwomen, in other words males”
I think there are good reasons for sports in particular to have different rules about this to other situations.
Not just hormone levels but the legacy of previous hormone levels.
If someone transitions after puberty, what happens to their frame, say hips and shoulders/elbows? Does their frame change or does it retain traces of their birth sex?
Also, we know from the Cold war that team doctors in East Germany would force their female athletes to get pregnant and then have abortions for athletic performance. It's not a stretch to imagine that a male athlete in a similar regime, might be forced to transition in order to get better medal performance, so it makes sense to prevent this giving an advantage.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation
Re: Justin Webb complaint: “transwomen, in other words males”
Chess isn't a sport, it's a board game.Tristan wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2024 8:26 amJustin Webb has had a complaint against him upheld for saying “transwomen, in other words males” whilst reporting on transwomen accessing women’s sport. https://pressgazette.co.uk/the-wire/new ... complaint/
This seems odd to me. The biological sex of competitors in women’s sport is highly relevant to the story. What Webb said helped add clarity to what the story was about. It’s worrying that he’s had a complaint upheld about a perfectly reasonable statement.
Re: Justin Webb complaint: “transwomen, in other words males”
Sure, you spend your time posting transphobic articles on here, on the Scrutable Facebook group, and on Twitter on a regular basis, with little other engagement, and I'm the hate filled one.
Re: Justin Webb complaint: “transwomen, in other words males”
The IOC begs to differmonkey wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2024 1:21 pmChess isn't a sport, it's a board game.Tristan wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2024 8:26 amJustin Webb has had a complaint against him upheld for saying “transwomen, in other words males” whilst reporting on transwomen accessing women’s sport. https://pressgazette.co.uk/the-wire/new ... complaint/
This seems odd to me. The biological sex of competitors in women’s sport is highly relevant to the story. What Webb said helped add clarity to what the story was about. It’s worrying that he’s had a complaint upheld about a perfectly reasonable statement.
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Re: Justin Webb complaint: “transwomen, in other words males”
Us little women can't pick up the pieces or something
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Re: Justin Webb complaint: “transwomen, in other words males”
I didn't make any accusation, implicit or explicit, against Helen Joyce. I described what she did and what her response was. Retract that.
If truth is many-sided, mendacity is many-tongued
Re: Justin Webb complaint: “transwomen, in other words males”
No I won't retract that. Your wording was clearly meant to imply something sinister was going on.El Pollo Diablo wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2024 1:29 pmI didn't make any accusation, implicit or explicit, against Helen Joyce. I described what she did and what her response was. Retract that.
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Re: Justin Webb complaint: “transwomen, in other words males”
Yes during the civil rights era lots of “reasonable centre ground” people whose views were somewhere between the kkk and far leftists who wanted equal rights for everyone had to endure being called hate filled bigots.
For what it’s worth, I think this is a complicated issue and I can see problems with sports and some arguments for other things. But arguments like this are ridiculous, a view being in “centre ground”, even if true, doesn’t show whether it’s a bigoted view or not.
And in the case of the actual OP it’s really not hard to see why calling a group of people who see their gender as female “men”, without qualification that you mean their biological gender, would be a very upsetting and unpleasant thing to do.
Re: Justin Webb complaint: “transwomen, in other words males”
It is not transphobic to talk about biology. The controversy over sport simply makes no sense if you are banned from talking about biology. Discussion cannot take place if an extremist labels you as a transphobic bigot for bringing in biology.
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Re: Justin Webb complaint: “transwomen, in other words males”
For what it’s worth I agree with Tristan regarding your post there. My impression was that Twitter thread seemed a bit of stretch and you took it even further with the thread title and OP.Tristan wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2024 1:36 pmNo I won't retract that. Your wording was clearly meant to imply something sinister was going on.El Pollo Diablo wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2024 1:29 pmI didn't make any accusation, implicit or explicit, against Helen Joyce. I described what she did and what her response was. Retract that.